Conversion therapy

It is the kindness of Jesus and knowing how loved we are that leads us to change.... How many people get really born again through fear tactic s??

very few and then they have the issues of fear and trying to earn salvation to work through else their faith can get shipwrecked.

the issue I saw with conversion therapy cases (admittedly I only read of a few) seem to be people changing Due to fear. Or rather they feel they gotta appear as thoug they changing or el se.

Carl Emerson said:

OK my OP asked however, if the proposed legislation will ban churches from assisting those who want to return to their birth gender. I have Christian friends who are deeply greived and regret assisting their daughter to change sex - if all parties agree to reverse the journey, will the church under the new law be banned from assisting ?

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Can you post your source or an article about this?

NerdGirl123 said:

It's a disservice, and very thoughtless (perhaps unintentionally so) to claim that a person who has successfully gone through conversion or restorative therapy, is merely "suppressed". Their experience and identity is not invalidated because you don't personally agree with it.

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I've worked with survivors of this "therapy" for years. there is no success unless you count coming out from under it's shadow

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:

the hate and discrimination starts after they come out as gay though. children aren't gay so I wonder where the root cause lies?

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hate and discrimination permeate society and you don't need to be out or even gay to feel that

Redwingfan9 said:

There are any number of people who have claimed to be cured. I dare say they would disagree that it's been at a high cost to their well being. In fact, from a Christian standpoint eliminating this or any other sin is a great thing for our spiritual well-being.

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there is any number of people who claim to have been abducted by UFO's as well.

A huge discontinuity when you ask those who have been "cured" if they are heterosexual. Chances are you won't get a straight answer. There is talk about "leaving the gay lifestyle, what ever that is, and struggles with same sex attraction but no one saying i am a happy healthy heterosexual

dqhall said:

I am not sure of that. I may be celibate and not marry. I may not do homosexuality.

Judas betrayed Jesus by assisting the Sanhedrin in his arrest. Even though Judas was in with the in crowd, he lost all desire to live.

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the direct connection between prejudice and mood disorders has been shown time and time again.

M.J. Rotherman-Borus Suicidal Behavior and Gay-Related Stress among Gay and Bisexual Male Adolescents Journal of adolescent research 2013

V. P. Poteat and D. L. Espelage Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students Journal of Adolescence 2009

Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003

V.M. Mays & S.D. Cochran “Mental health correlates of perceived discrimination among lesbian, gay and bisexual adults in the United States 2001

J. Ramirez-Valles, L. M. Kuhns, R. T. Campbell, and R. M. Diaz Social Integration and Health: Community Involvement, Stigmatized Identities, and Sexual Risk in Latino Sexual Minorities journal of health and societal behavior.2010

L. E. Ross, C. Dobinson, and A. Eady Perceived Determinants of Mental Health for Bisexual People: A Qualitative Examination American Journal of Public Health 2009

S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007

D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005

Mays, V.M. and Cochran, S.D. Mental Health Correlates of Perceived Discrimination Among Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Adults in the United States. American Journal of Public Health Nov 2001

M.L. Hatzenbuehler The Social Environment and Suicide Attempts in Lesbian Gay and Bisexual Youth. Pediatrics 2011

Cochran, S.D. Sulivan, J.G. and Mays V.M. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Feb 2003

Sanfort, T.G.M., deGraaf, R. and Schnabel, P. Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: Findings From the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001

Meyer, I. H. Minority Stress and Mental Health in Gay Men Journal of health and social behavior 2010

Fredrikson, K.I et al Successful Aging Among LGBT Older Adults: Physical and Mental Health-Related Quality of Life by Age Group. The Gerontologist Sept 2014

Kattari, S.K. and Hasche, L. Differences Across Age Groups in Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming People's Experiences of Health Care Discrimination, Harassment, and Victimization. J of Aging June 2015

Peel, E. and Nodin, N. Risk and Resilience Explored for Sexual Minorities in England: Qualitative Findings. Applied Qualitative Research in Psychology, Aug 2014

Burns M.N. et al Mental Health Disorders in Young Urban Sexual Minority Men. J of Adolescent Health Jan 2015

Holloway, I. W. Padilla, M. B. and WIllner, L. Effects of Minority stress processes on the mental health of Latino men who have sex with men. Arch of sexual behavior Sept 2014

Charles K. et al Sexual minority status and trauma symptom severity. J of behavioral medicine Jan 2011

Marshal, P.M. and Dermody S.S. Depressive symptoms and suicidality among heterosexual and sexual minority youth J of youth and adolescence april 2013

Pachankis J. E. and COcran, S.D. The mental health of sexual minority adults in and out of the closet: A population-based study. J of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Oct 2015

Bostwick W.B. et al. Discrimination and mental health among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. Am J of Orthopshcyiatry Jan 2014

D. M. Huebner, G. M. Rebchook, and S. M. Kegeles. Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men American Journal of public heath 2005

Hershberger, S.L. N.W. Pilkington and A.R. D’Augelli. Predictors of Suicide Attempts Among Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Youth. J of Adolescent research. 1997

Poteat, V.P. and D.L Espelage. Predicting Psychosocial Consequences of Homophobic Victimization in Middle School Students J of Adolescent research. 2007

Meyer, I. H . Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations. Psychological Bulletin, Sep 2003

S. K. Dane and G. MacDonald Heterosexuals' acceptance predicts the well-being of same-sex attracted young adults beyond ingroup support Journal of social and personal relationships 2007

Kyung-Hee Choi, Paul J. Experiences of Discrimination and Their Impact on the Mental Health among African American, Asian and Pacific Islander, and Latino Men Who Have Sex with Men. Am J Public Health. 2013

Savin-Williams, Ritch C. Verbal and physical abuse as stressors in the lives of lesbian, gay male, and bisexual youths: Associations with school problems, running away, substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 2014

Graham L.F. Et al Factors Influencing Depression and Anxiety among Black Sexual Minority Men. J of depression research and treatment 2011

Carl Emerson said:

We are using the term 'Conversion Therapy' as an umbrella term that covers all forms of ministry in this area whether good or bad.

Not all ministries are abusive.

The term was coined it seems to close down all ministry sought by folks wanting to revert to their birth gender.

The power of argument is in the language you create to win it.

Let's not allow this to happen.

The testimony on post #53 brings out this point pretty well. It is worth a watch.

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if it relies on junk science and false claims about homosexuality and if it fosters self hatred then yes it is abusive.

Quartermaine said:

I've worked with survivors of this "therapy" for years. there is no success unless you count coming out from under it's shadow

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Again, you're speaking for people all over the world, that you don't even know. Stick with your personal experience, and leave room that others may have different experiences than you have.

Carl Emerson said:

Would you like to respond to the testimony post #53 please - then readers can decide where you are coming from.

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what you have in post 53 is someone whose livelihood is dependent on his claims.

the idea that kids are "set up" for homosexuality is part of the junk science i mentioned. it is based on no evidence, and no research. It is a claim made by advocates of reparative therapies that they can't or more to the point can't substantiate. There is no evidence about distant or detached fathers, those in the business pushing this idea can't even define just what constitutes a distant or detached father. Joseph Nicolossi is famous for pushing this idea and any time he woudl meet a homosexual youth, he targeted children for his practice, that didn't agree that their dads were absent or unloving those children were berated for lying.

His claim that typically homosexuals are molested as children is also not born out by any research. LGBT youth have much higher rates of psychical and emotional abuse as well as sexual abouse at the hands of parents but only as they grow older. Prior to age 12 LGBT youth are not abused any more of any less than their heterosexual peers. it's only after their orientation is made known or suspected that parental abuse grows exponentially.

If there is one person who went from being homosexual to being heterosexual without doing so under abuse or duress, then the fact is that conversion, restoration, or whatever term you prefer to use, is possible and therefore valid. Those who claim to be so desperate and passionate about inclusivity and acceptance, must remain unbiased and fair towards those they disagree with on a personal level, or they lose their own credibility. To say, "No homosexual can ever become heterosexual" invalidates the experiences of those who have lived something you have not. You cannot gatekeep the truth because you simply want it to be a particular thing.

That long list of articles you cited are all over the place. It's not a list of articles relating to the OP or "conversion therapy". It's not even a list about "prejudice" towards homosexuals. Many of them are generic "homosexuals suffer from various mental illnesses" articles, which is just muddying the focus of this thread.

How about we stick to the OP's question?

Carl Emerson said:

Yes, there is no doubt that abusive practices have occurred - however a total ban on providing ministry and support for those who wish to revert should be allowed.

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harmful treatments and therapies are banned all the time. Ice pick lobotomies are a fine example

When someone says "this was my experience" and your only reply is "there's no research to support you", you're immediately invalidating that person and silencing them. It's an unjust and unfair thing to do. Research does not cover all human experience.

NerdGirl123 said:

If there is one person who went from being homosexual to being heterosexual without doing so under abuse or duress, then the fact is that conversion, restoration, or whatever term you prefer to use, is possible and therefore valid.

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in the late 1990's psychiatrist Robert Spitzer tried to study people who say they were homosexual but after therapy are now heterosexual. He couldn't find any. He ended up going to ex-gay ministries to get people to study, a truly bad choice. the ministries provided him with 200 individuals of those he found 11 men said they were gay but were now straight. his study failed it's peer review because of the test subjects all 11 men were employed by ex-gay ministries and their continued employment hinged on their claims.
In 2010 a graduate student of Spritzer tracked down 10 of those men, none were associated with their ministries any more and all admitted that they had lied and they had never been homosexual in the first place.
a short time later Spitzer public ally apologized for his research

Those who claim to be so desperate and passionate about inclusivity and acceptance, must remain unbiased and fair towards those they disagree with on a personal level, or they lose their own credibility. To say, "No homosexual can ever become heterosexual" invalidates the experiences of those who have lived something you have not. You cannot gatekeep the truth because you simply want it to be a particular thing.

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not believing in extra terrestrials invalidates the experiences of those who say that have been abducted by aliens.

That long list of articles you cited are all over the place. It's not a list of articles relating to the OP or "conversion therapy". It's not even a list about "prejudice" towards homosexuals. Many of them are generic "homosexuals suffer from various mental illnesses" articles, which is just muddying the focus of this thread.

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they are about the long term effects of anti-gay prejudice and discrimination and all indicate that being homosexual isn't a cause of mental health problems, but being hated because you are homosexual is.

Carl Emerson said:

We are at election time and the Govt has announced intention to ban 'Converson Therapy' for those who wish to transition back to biological gender. (Forgive me if I use the wrong terminology, I am no expert.)

What I would like to know is if this therapy is Christian based. (I suspect not)

I would also like to know if such a ban might prohibit legitimate ministries in the church from assisting such a transition.

We in NewZealand have a Govt. trying to lead the world in 'progressive legislation'

Thanks for your help.

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Conversion therapy seems to be based on "taste not, touch not, handle not" precepts that have no value in restraining sensual indulgence.

So it is not a Christian based ideology, but by that measure, neither are a lot of church doctrines.

NerdGirl123 said:

When someone says "this was my experience" and your only reply is "there's no research to support you", you're immediately invalidating that person and silencing them. It's an unjust and unfair thing to do. Research does not cover all human experience.

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i'm back to the alien abduction comparison. Someone can say "this was my experience" but that experience isn't proof of extraterrestrials much less E.T's that kidnap people from isolated country roads and probe them. Questioning the extraordinary claims made by someone isn't unjust or unfair.