Contradictions within the Qur'an

elwill · Jul 24, 2009

Beckyy25 said:
OK, so here are the next 5 points:

11) How should Jews and Christians be treated?

With kindness and patience.

2:109 Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

By Fighting against them.

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islam] from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

jizyah = A tax required of non-Muslims exempting them from military service and
entitling them to the protection of the Islamic state. Concurrently, zakahis not taken from them, being an obligation only upon Muslims.

the contradiction is to two that 2 cases can't to be the truth in the same time , where is the contradictions here

civilians must pay the tax , if they didn't they will be punished , that's what happening even in your country

the tax which is given by muslims in zakaht is more than that of given in jeziah , abu bakr fought with muslims who didn't pay zakat either

12) Which was created first, heaven or earth?

Heaven

79:27-30 Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? He [i.e.,Allah] constructed it.
He raised its ceiling and proportioned it.
And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness.
And after that He spread the earth.

Earth

2:29 It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.

41:9-12 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."
And He placed on it [i.e., the earth] firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information of] those who ask.
Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired [i.e., made known] in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps [i.e., stars, for beauty] and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

nice question

in the first vere it says that he spread the earth , which means that the earth was allready exist but he just spread it

13) Will Allah forgive anyone for anything?

Yes, Allah will forgive those tho seek pardon.

4:110 And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself but then seeks forgiveness of Allah will find Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

39:53 Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful."

No, there are some things and some people that he will never forgive.

4:48 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

4:116 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray.

4:137 Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief – never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.

4:168 Indeed, those who disbelieve and commit wrong [or injustice] – never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a path,

9:80 Ask forgiveness for them, [O Muhammad], or do not ask forgiveness for them. If you should ask forgiveness for them seventy times – never will Allah forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.

47:34 Indeed, those who disbelieved and averted [people] from the path of Allah and then died while they were disbelievers – never will Allah forgive them.

63:3-6 That is because they believed, and then they disbelieved; so their hearts were sealed over, and they do not understand.
And when you see them, their forms please you, and if they speak, you listen to their speech. [They are] as if they were pieces of wood propped up – they think that every shout is against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you," they turn their heads aside and you see them evading while they are arrogant.
It is all the same for them whether you ask forgiveness for them or do not ask forgiveness for them; never will Allah forgive them. Indeed, Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.

there;s no contradictions atall
allah may forgive any sins be commited by his believes but he will never forgive anyone associated others in worship with him

the forgiveness here is for believers and non forgiveness is for disbelievers

i'm in hurry now , so i will catch you later

peace

Beckyy25 · Jul 24, 2009

elwill said:
i think that msot of our answers are form quran
but what is the wrong with ahadeeth , it's the records of our prophet saying , it is the same as your only sourse (bible) is records about his life
you even dosn't have words of God similar to what muslims have in quran , you only have records about him as we have it in ahadeeth

Nothing is wrong with the Sunnah itself. I do not have anything against the Sunnah, it is for sure very useful for Muslims, because it gives so many explanations, answers, guidance in order to know how to practice your belief. In fact one of the things I admire within Islam is that there is an answer for every small issue someone has. If someone wants to know what to do in everyday life according to Islamic teachings, then he gets an answer for every little thing.

BUT, the problem is this: The Qur'an pretends to be a PERFECT revelation from Allah, complete, without error or doubt, it says it is 100% the words of Allah. And that is fine. But if I read such a claim, then I also expect this book to be enough (without any other sources like the Sunnah besides it) to practice this belief. Do you understand what I was trying to say?

In reality I have seen that the Qur'an is by far not sufficient to be a Muslim, for the simple fact that you would have no clue about so many issues, like the 5 daily prayers for example.

You know, when I started reading the Qur'an, I did not find it that bad as I expected. But with time I realized it is impossible to be a Muslim only by following the Qur'an (no offense for those who reject the Sunnah ). And I was very disappointed to see that the Qur'an is not even sufficient to let you know how to pray the 5 daily prayers.

elwill said:
and you don't have the smae problem with greek or hebrew language ? i think that your problem is bigger

Why is in your opinion our problem bigger?

Nowhere does the Bible claim to be the exact words of God, it is a collection of books written by many authors who lived in different time periods and who were inspired by God to write down the things they did.

We know from the start that we do not need to learn the original language the Bible was written in, in order to be able to understand it's complete and correct message. We know that what we have in front of us is a translation, no matter how good this translation might be. Each of the translations does it's job in showing the main message the Bible has, e.g. Salvation by faith through Jesus Christ. And for those who want to study things more in depth (but this is not a must, it's optional) they can find loads of books and dictionaries to study every single word of the original manuscripts.

Also many pastors do use Hebrew and Greek words during a sermon, if they want to show the correct meaning of something. And they admit that in the original language things have a much deeper meaning. That is also why my goal is to learn Hebrew, and as you know I'm also learning Arabic, to be able to read one day the Qur'an and OT in it's original language.

But in Islam it is everyone's duty to learn Arabic. The prayers have to be said in Arabic, one should use the Arabic word 'Allah' for saying God, one's goal should be to learn Arabic in order to be able to recite the Qur'an in Arabic. I mean this is not a wrong thing to do, don't misunderstand me. It is just that all those Muslims who do not speak Arabic, are somehow disadvantaged as long as they do not learn Arabic. It's like they do not see the whole beauty or message Islam has as long as they do not read it in it's original language.

But I'm asking myself: Is this the important part in the life of a believer? To understand every single word in the original language in which your holy book has been revealed? Or is it more important to know God's will for your life, to know His commandments and to be able to fulfill them?

elwill said:
so that you choose to follow the bible ? :o

Yes until now I'm still following the Bible, only the Bible, no other sources besides it. You could call me a Bible-onlyist (if such an expression does exist ) I used to read books with explanations about different issues, but I realized so many people simply write down their own opinion, without taking in consideration what the Bible really teaches. It can be that I simply read the wrong books until now.

SlaveOfGod · Jul 24, 2009

Becky, may Allah open your eyes fully

Why do you think that just because the Quran states it is clear and without doubt that it should be enough? When Allah tells you to refer to the Sunnah of Muhammed repeatdley over and over again.

The Quran does not tell a Muslim everything he needs to know, but does this mean the book is unclear and has doubt in it? Surely not, indeed the Quran tells us to refer to its Words and the Sunnah for everthing we need.

Regards

brinny · Jul 24, 2009

SlaveOfGod said:
Becky, may Allah open your eyes fully

Why do you think that just because the Quran states it is clear and without doubt that it should be enough? When Allah tells you to refer to the Sunnah of Muhammed repeatdley over and over again.

The Quran does not tell a Muslim everything he needs to know, but does this mean the book is unclear and has doubt in it? Surely not, indeed the Quran tells us to refer to its Words and the Sunnah for everthing we need.

Regards

Why isn't the Quran enough? Why is it necessary to refer to the Sunnah for anything? Does not Allah provide wisdom to understand the Quran?

Beckyy25 · Jul 24, 2009

elwill said:
the contradiction is to two that 2 cases can't to be the truth in the same time , where is the contradictions here

civilians must pay the tax , if they didn't they will be punished , that's what happening even in your country

the tax which is given by muslims in zakaht is more than that of given in jeziah , abu bakr fought with muslims who didn't pay zakat either

The thing is that the first verse says to pardon those who do not have the same belief Muslims have (e.g. to let them live in peace), while the second one says to fight them (the paying of jizyah is not really relevant here). The question is why are these 2 verses saying the opposite? Was there any reason for leaving alone the disbelievers (as mentioned in 2:109) and another time telling Muslims to fight them (9:29)?

elwill said:
nice question

I only have nice questions.

elwill said:
in the first vere it says that he spread the earth , which means that the earth was allready exist but he just spread it

I think it would be helpful to have the Arabic word for 'spread' and to see the exact meaning of it.

elwill said:
there;s no contradictions atall
allah may forgive any sins be commited by his believes but he will never forgive anyone associated others in worship with him [/left]

the forgiveness here is for believers and non forgiveness is for disbelievers

OK.

elwill said:
i'm in hurry now , so i will catch you later

peace

No problem, take your time. Answer whenever you have time to do so.

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jul 24, 2009

SlaveOfGod said:
When Allah tells you to refer to the Sunnah of Muhammed repeatdley over and over again.

Simply because Muhammad is known to make mistakes. If he makes mistakes, then his law can not be perfect.

The Quran does not tell a Muslim everything he needs to know, but does this mean the book is unclear and has doubt in it?

Sunnah is the word of men. It is not divinely inspired therefore can not be trusted.

Beckyy25 · Jul 24, 2009

SlaveOfGod said:
Becky, may Allah open your eyes fully

Why do you think that just because the Quran states it is clear and without doubt that it should be enough? When Allah tells you to refer to the Sunnah of Muhammed repeatdley over and over again.

The Quran does not tell a Muslim everything he needs to know, but does this mean the book is unclear and has doubt in it? Surely not, indeed the Quran tells us to refer to its Words and the Sunnah for everthing we need.

Regards

You know, I doubt that the ahadith (I'm talking about the authentic ones) are really authentic. I mean the procedure of testing the chain of narrators, to see if the narrators were truthful people, I mean... I doubt that someone could really know that what they were narrating was really the truth. I can't help it, but I really do not believe that. What if there were some who only invented things, saying Muhammad said this or that, but in fact he didn't? Who can verify all these? No one.

To my knowledge only the Qur'an has been written down during Muhammad's lifetime (the compilation was done after his death), while the ahadith were written down later on (e.g. after Muhammad's death). Is this correct or am I misinformed?

So for me the issue of Sunnah is a shaky one, so I expect the Qur'an (who pretends to be perfect) to contain at least the basic info one needs to be a Muslim.

SlaveOfGod · Jul 24, 2009

Beckyy25 said:
You know, I doubt that the ahadith (I'm talking about the authentic ones) are really authentic. I mean the procedure of testing the chain of narrators, to see if the narrators were truthful people, I mean... I doubt that someone could really know that what they were narrating was really the truth. I can't help it, but I really do not believe that. What if there were some who only invented things, saying Muhammad said this or that, but in fact he didn't? Who can verify all these? No one.

To my knowledge only the Qur'an has been written down during Muhammad's lifetime (the compilation was done after his death), while the ahadith were written down later on (e.g. after Muhammad's death). Is this correct or am I misinformed?

So for me the issue of Sunnah is a shaky one, so I expect the Qur'an (who pretends to be perfect) to contain at least the basic info one needs to be a Muslim.

Let's take an example.

Someone tells you something. You ask that person where did he hear it from. This persons says:

"I heard it from this person, who heard it from this person who heard it from this person who said this......"

And you knew every person in this chain of transmission, was truthful, pious, a strong memory and of upright character. Would you accept this transmission?

SlaveOfGod · Jul 24, 2009

Bushmaster78FS said:
Simply because Muhammad is known to make mistakes. If he makes mistakes, then his law can not be perfect.

Sunnah is the word of men. It is not divinely inspired therefore can not be trusted.

The Sunnah is divinely inspired as confirmed by Allah in the Quran

HumbleSiPilot77 · Jul 24, 2009

The Sunnah of Bukhari contains Hadith dealing with a simply enormous range of human activities, such as: rules governing trade, rules of plunder, clothing, menstruation, urination, defecation, when to have sex, the sale of slaves, the buying of dates, when to rape female prisoners, the washing of hands, alcohol, etc. But Muhammad was a man. So were his urination and defecation under divine control? Were his eating, going to the market for food, and his haggling over the price of food under divine control? He was married with many wives. Were his sexual activities and settling of personal marital problems divinely inspired? Other followers of Islam, and even godless heathens, perform these same activities without any evident divine control by Allah. This latter fact proves that many of the words, deeds, eating, buying food in the market, or the sexual activities of Muhammad were certainly not under divine control by Allah. Accordingly, Muhammad was certainly not receiving revelations from Allah all the time. Unfortunately, the Sunnah does not differentiate which of the words and deeds of Muhammad were from Muhammad himself, and which originated from divine revelation.

SlaveOfGod · Jul 24, 2009

brinny said:
Why isn't the Quran enough? Why is it necessary to refer to the Sunnah for anything? Does not Allah provide wisdom to understand the Quran?

You may find this useful:

Islam Question and Answer - Justification for following the Sunnah

SlaveOfGod · Jul 24, 2009

Bushmaster78FS said:
The Sunnah of Bukhari contains Hadith dealing with a simply enormous range of human activities, such as: rules governing trade, rules of plunder, clothing, menstruation, urination, defecation, when to have sex, the sale of slaves, the buying of dates, when to rape female prisoners, the washing of hands, alcohol, etc. But Muhammad was a man. So were his urination and defecation under divine control? Were his eating, going to the market for food, and his haggling over the price of food under divine control? He was married with many wives. Were his sexual activities and settling of personal marital problems divinely inspired? Other followers of Islam, and even godless heathens, perform these same activities without any evident divine control by Allah. This latter fact proves that many of the words, deeds, eating, buying food in the market, or the sexual activities of Muhammad were certainly not under divine control by Allah. Accordingly, Muhammad was certainly not receiving revelations from Allah all the time. Unfortunately, the Sunnah does not differentiate which of the words and deeds of Muhammad were from Muhammad himself, and which originated from divine revelation.

I refer you to this:

Islam Question and Answer - The saheeh Sunnah is wahy (Revelation) from Allaah

brinny · Jul 24, 2009

Originally Posted by brinny
Why isn't the Quran enough? Why is it necessary to refer to the Sunnah for anything? Does not Allah provide wisdom to understand the Quran?

SlaveOfGod said:
You may find this useful:

Islam Question and Answer - Justification for following the Sunnah

That is a link with "reasoning" on why the Sunnah is necessary? Does not Allah give wisdom for understanding the Quran? Why is anything additional necessary, according to Allah? Does He not say so himself?

peaceful soul · Jul 24, 2009

originally posted by Beckyy25

Beckyy25, I do agree with you POV, not because I am a Christian like you, rather becasue I can't see them tracing back over 100 (more like 125-150) years after Mohammad's death and figuring out who said what and knowing that these were all truthful statements. All it takes is for a story to get embellished or diminished in its content for it to become inaccurate; but worst of all is that the story could have been a complete lie from the start; so, just becasue someone could remember the chain of narrations would not ensure it's truthfulness. Somehow Muslims miss that. I understand why? Their foundation of logic dicates that they learn first and think later after they have learned. If something is reported to be authentic, then they accept it and work backwards to make sure that it fits context of their teachings. Allah and Mohammad have conditioned them to not question their religion as far as authority and interpretation goes. That is why they see almost anything negating their POV as lies, even though it may have merit when seen in a logical fashion outside of their religion. I am not saying that this is the complete logic on their part, but a formidable one.

You know, I doubt that the ahadith (I'm talking about the authentic ones) are really authentic. I mean the procedure of testing the chain of narrators, to see if the narrators were truthful people, I mean... I doubt that someone could really know that what they were narrating was really the truth.

Click to expand...

I can't help it, but I really do not believe that. What if there were some who only invented things, saying Muhammad said this or that, but in fact he didn't? Who can verify all these? No one.

I have always said this; but when I have confronted some Muslims, they don't seem to grasp it. They will still say that their science of hadiths is somehow been perfected and weeds out those possibilities. The next thing that they will do is to label those that seem unreasonable or negative towards their teachings as weak hadiths or untrustworthy. All it takes is for a lie to be told from the start to be both authentic and confirmed through a chain of legitimate witneses.

To my knowledge only the Qur'an has been written down during Muhammad's lifetime (the compilation was done after his death), while the ahadith were written down later on (e.g. after Muhammad's death). Is this correct or am I misinformed?

The hadiths were written down anywhere from 125-150 years later by most accounts that I have read. The Qu'ran may have been completely written on fragments of various things, but it was not a collated text until after Mohammad's death. Before that point, the Qu'ran was oratory.

So for me the issue of Sunnah is a shaky one, so I expect the Qur'an (who pretends to be perfect) to contain at least the basic info one needs to be a Muslim.

I agree that the Sunnah is shaky. What really annoys me is that if I explain to them about the early documents of Christianity, including debates and discussions of some early Church members, they balk at them while having no problem with believing in hadiths confirmed much later. What is even more distrubing about that is that the Church members wrote their material down and in some cases, circulated it (multiple copies) where it became common knowledge among certain communities. Now, you would think that a Muslim would concede that such documentation would be accepted as authentication of the Bible and serve as witness to Jesus and His teachings and confirm some of the disputes that Muslims would have regarding Islamic doctrines that dispute Christianity such as Jesus dying on the cross.

Anyways, interesting stuff.

Beckyy25 · Jul 24, 2009

SlaveOfGod said:
Let's take an example.

Someone tells you something. You ask that person where did he hear it from. This persons says:

"I heard it from this person, who heard it from this person who heard it from this person who said this......"

And you knew every person in this chain of transmission, was truthful, pious, a strong memory and of upright character. Would you accept this transmission?

No. And you know why? Because you can't fully trust people. A person often might seem to be a good person, while in reality this person is not as good as everyone thought. It's just a case of how capable someone is to hide his true being from the people around him.

You know, all this "I heard it from this person, who heard it from this person who heard it from this person who said this......" seems to be really a primitive way (I do not mean this as an insult or something) of transmitting such valuable information. The more persons are involved in something, the greater is the possibility of mistakes to be made. I would rather believe a person who claims to have received a revelation from God directly (like Muhammad) than believing (let's better say trusting) that some people have heard this and that from someone, and that they were really trustworthy and pious people. What if they weren't? What if they misunderstood something? What if they simply invented something or added few little things to a saying, to make it look better or whatever? This issue is too important to just blindly trust this way of transmission. It can't be verified to 100% in order to know if what those people said was really the truth. To some degree you simply have no other choice but to believe what they were saying.

elwill · Jul 24, 2009

brinny said:
Why isn't the Quran enough? Why is it necessary to refer to the Sunnah for anything? Does not Allah provide wisdom to understand the Quran?

quran is enough to know the principles of islamic faith , as for someone who wnat to know what is islam is all about , he will not come to ask us how we pray , nay , he will need to know what is the islam and what is it's basics , the other things is advanced for someone who is allready muslim and need to follow the practical life of the prophet , and offcourse it's very important to know the environment where the quran was revealed and it's very important to know reasons of revelations of every verse as for quran was revealed through 23 years

after all we use the sunnah because quran ocommand us to do so

33-21 Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

Beckyy25 · Jul 24, 2009

Bushmaster78FS said:
The Sunnah of Bukhari contains Hadith dealing with a simply enormous range of human activities, such as: rules governing trade, rules of plunder, clothing, menstruation, urination, defecation, when to have sex, the sale of slaves, the buying of dates, when to rape female prisoners, the washing of hands, alcohol, etc. But Muhammad was a man. So were his urination and defecation under divine control? Were his eating, going to the market for food, and his haggling over the price of food under divine control? He was married with many wives. Were his sexual activities and settling of personal marital problems divinely inspired? Other followers of Islam, and even godless heathens, perform these same activities without any evident divine control by Allah. This latter fact proves that many of the words, deeds, eating, buying food in the market, or the sexual activities of Muhammad were certainly not under divine control by Allah. Accordingly, Muhammad was certainly not receiving revelations from Allah all the time. Unfortunately, the Sunnah does not differentiate which of the words and deeds of Muhammad were from Muhammad himself, and which originated from divine revelation.

Good point.

brinny · Jul 24, 2009

Originally Posted by brinny
Why isn't the Quran enough? Why is it necessary to refer to the Sunnah for anything? Does not Allah provide wisdom to understand the Quran?

elwill said:
quran is enough to know the principles of islamic faith , as for someone who wnat to know what is islam is all about , he will not come to ask us how we pray , nay , he will need to know what is the islam and what is it's basics , the other things is advanced for someone who is allready muslim and need to follow the practical life of the prophet , and offcourse it's very important to know the environment where the quran was revealed and it's very important to know reasons of revelations of every verse as for quran was revealed through 23 years

after all we use the sunnah because quran ocommand us to do so

33-21 Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

Thank you kindly for your patience.

My question is in reference to knowing Allah himself, and he, imparting wisdom to his subjects. The secondary part of my question is about seeking him, his face, because of loving him....knowing him in a personal way. Does he not invite this? And if so, why would he not impart wisdom as one gets to know him, his heart and mind?

elwill · Jul 24, 2009

Beckyy25 said:
The thing is that the first verse says to pardon those who do not have the same belief Muslims have (e.g. to let them live in peace), while the second one says to fight them (the paying of jizyah is not really relevant here). The question is why are these 2 verses saying the opposite? Was there any reason for leaving alone the disbelievers (as mentioned in 2:109) and another time telling Muslims to fight them (9:29)?

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [i.e., Islam] from those who were given the Scripture [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

don't miss " until they give jeziah" , the verse is talking about civilized nonmuslims who don't pay the tax

I only have nice questions.

i have to confess that i like that

I think it would be helpful to have the Arabic word for 'spread' and to see the exact meaning of it.

that the Arabic verb "Daha" which mentioned refers to:
1- An egg or spherical shape.
2- A squatted, dumpy, pushed down or pressed spherical object.
3- A circular motion.

the verb daha refer to the process of making egg or spherical shape and also means that make it move in circular motion

Beckyy25 · Jul 24, 2009

peaceful soul said:
originally posted by Beckyy25

Beckyy25, I do agree with you POV, not because I am a Christian like you, rather becasue I can't see them tracing back over 100 (more like 125-150) years after Mohammad's death and figuring out who said what and knowing that these were all truthful statements.

That is the main reason I doubt the Sunnah. After so many years, how can someone distinguish between an authentic and an untrustworthy hadeeth?

peaceful soul said:
All it takes is for a story to get embellished or diminished in its content for it to become inaccurate; but worst of all is that the story could have been a complete lie from the start; so, just becasue someone could remember the chain of narrations would not ensure it's truthfulness.

Exactly. It is so easy to manipulate such things, but still Muslims seem to blindly trust this way of transmission.

peaceful soul said:
Somehow Muslims miss that. I understand why? Their foundation of logic dicates that they learn first and think later after they have learned. If something is reported to be authentic, then they accept it and work backwards to make sure that it fits context of their teachings. Allah and Mohammad have conditioned them to not question their religion as far as authority and interpretation goes. That is why they see almost anything negating their POV as lies, even though it may have merit when seen in a logical fashion outside of their religion. I am not saying that this is the complete logic on their part, but a formidable one.

That is exactly how I have seen this issue always.

peaceful soul said:
I have always said this; but when I have confronted some Muslims, they don't seem to grasp it. They will still say that their science of hadiths is somehow been perfected and weeds out those possibilities. The next thing that they will do is to label those that seem unreasonable or negative towards their teachings as weak hadiths or untrustworthy. All it takes is for a lie to be told from the start to be both authentic and confirmed through a chain of legitimate witneses.

What would that be called? Blind belief? Or faith/trust in man?
The Bible teaches us: This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man," (Jeremiah 17:5a)

peaceful soul said:
I agree that the Sunnah is shaky. What really annoys me is that if I explain to them about the early documents of Christianity, including debates and discussions of some early Church members, they balk at them while having no problem with believing in hadiths confirmed much later. What is even more distrubing about that is that the Church members wrote their material down and in some cases, circulated it (multiple copies) where it became common knowledge among certain communities. Now, you would think that a Muslim would concede that such documentation would be accepted as authentication of the Bible and serve as witness to Jesus and His teachings and confirm some of the disputes that Muslims would have regarding Islamic doctrines that dispute Christianity such as Jesus dying on the cross.

Anyways, interesting stuff.

I have learned one thing about Muslims: Everything that is in agreement with Islam is fine and there is no doubt in that. But anything that does not agree with Islam is false, corrupted, a lie or whatever.

But what bothers me the most is that Muslims claim that God promised to preserve the Qur'an (and also the Sunnah as it is explained in one of the links SlaveOfGod posted in one of the previous posts) from human corruption, but obviously He did not care to preserve the Torah, Psalms and Gospels from being corrupted? Does that sound like a fair God to you?

I do not believe God is playing games with us. It can't be that for thousands of years people used to believe something, and then suddenly a prophet in Arabia arose with the final revelation from God?! And what about God's chosen people Israel? What about his (eternal!) covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?!

Contradictions within the Qur'an

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