Constantine created Christianity

mmksparbud said:

And I am still waiting for the verse that says GOD has changed the day of worship from His stated 7th day to the 1st day! No one else has the right to change it!

Without a "thus saith the Lord"---His commandment stands!

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We believe that the Bible IS the word of God, divine revelation. Therefore, we do have his word on the matter of Sunday worship. End of this little discussion.

mmksparbud said:

Good grief, there were Sabbath keepers throughout history, long before any SDA!---nobody wants to admit it!

Sabbath keepers throughout history

• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The First Century A.D.

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There is a serious error in the first link of your proof.

JOSEPHUS
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

Here is what Josephus wrote,
40. We have already demonstrated that our laws have been such as have always inspired admiration and imitation into all other men. Nay the earliest Grecian philosophers, though in appearance they observed the laws of their own countries, yet did they, in their actions, and their philosophick doctrines, follow our legislator; and instructed men to live sparingly, and to have friendly communication one with another. Nay farther, the multitude of mankind it self have had a great inclination of a long time to follow our religious observances. For there is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come, and by which our fasts, and lighting up lamps, and many of our prohibitions as to our food, are not observed. They also endeavour to imitate our mutual concord with one another; and the charitable distribution of our goods; and our diligence in our trades; and our fortitude in undergoing the distresses we are in, on account of our laws. And, what is here matter of the greatest admiration, our law hath no bait of pleasure to allure men to it; but it prevails by its own force. And as God himself pervades all the world, so hath our law passed through all the world also. So that if any one will but reflect on his own country, and his own family, he will have reason to give credit to what I say. It is therefore but just either to condemn all mankind of indulging a wicked disposition, when they have been so desirous of imitating laws that are to them foreign, and evil in themselves; rather than following laws of their own that are of a better character: or else our accusers must leave off their spite against us. Nor are we guilty of any envious behaviour towards them, when we honour our own legislator, and believe what he, by his prophetick authority, hath taught us concerning God. For though we should not be able our selves to understand the excellency of all our own laws; yet would the great multitude of those that desire to imitate them justify us, in greatly valuing our selves upon them. Josephus: Against Apion II

Albion said:

We believe that the Bible IS the word of God, divine revelation. Therefore, we do have his word on the matter of Sunday worship. End of this little discussion.

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Yes, we have His word which does not say one single word about GOD having changed the day of worship to the 1st day of the week, so yes---it has the final say---the 7th day stands---you can do as you wish, I will follow the bible--and that should be the end of this little discussion. God changes not!!!

XXX. Now when the whole world had been
brought to completion in accordance with the pro¬
perties of six, a perfect number, the Father invested
with dignity the seventh day which comes next,
extolling it and pronouncing it holy ; for it is the
festival, not of a single city or country, but of the
universe, and it alone strictly deserves to be called
< ‘public ,, as belonging to all people and the birthday of
the world. I doubt whether anyone could adequately
celebrate the properties of the number 7, for they are
beyond all words. Yet the fact that it is more
wondrous than all that is said about it is no reason
for maintaining silence regarding it. Nay, we must
make a brave attempt to bring out at least all that is
within the compass of our understandings, even if it
be impossible to bring out all or even the most
essential points. Now, 7 or 7th is a term used in two
different senses. There is the 7 inside the number
10. This consists of 7 units, and is determined by
the sevenfold repetition of the unit. There is the
7 outside the number 10. This is a number starting
throughout from the number 1 and formed by doub¬
ling it and going on doubling (7 times) or trebling, or
multiplying by any other number in regular pro-
Full text of "Philo of Alexandria, Works (Loeb Classical Library in 12 volumes)"

Me: Your next proof text from the link does not say every nations and city are sabbath keepers. Nor, does it list any nation or non-Jewish City as keeping the sabbath. If I were you, I would not embarrass yourself by post those links again.

mmksparbud said:

Yes, we have His word which does not say one single word about GOD having changed the day of worship to the 1st day of the week, so yes---it has the final say---the 7th day stands---you can do as you wish, I will follow the bible--and that should be the end of this little discussion. God changes not!!!

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Are you saying there was no incarnation?

That would be the logical extension of your "God changes not".

mmksparbud said:

Yes, we have His word which does not say one single word about GOD having changed the day of worship to the 1st day of the week, so yes---it has the final say---the 7th day stands

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If it's taught in the Bible, GOD is teaching it. That is the nature of the Bible.

God changes not!!!

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Of course God himself does not change. However, it is rudimentary that he revealed his will and plans for humankind in stages, that being his intention from all eternity. We see that in the pages of Holy Scripture and it is obvious. This doesn't mean that he had a change of heart or something like that when the Messiah came, a new church was established, a New Covenant was inaugurated, etc.

Albion said:

If it's taught in the Bible, GOD is teaching it. That is the nature of the Bible.


Of course God himself does not change. However, it is rudimentary that he revealed his will and plans for humankind in stages, that being his intention from all eternity. We see that in the pages of Holy Scripture and it is obvious. This doesn't mean that he had a change of heart or something like that when the Messiah came, a new church was established, a New Covenant was inaugurated, etc.

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No, He hasn't taught any such thing. He wrote it on stone with His own hand and you think He's going to be vague about changing it? Nope, it would be clear. Why would He change it to Sunday and change it back to the 7th day with the new earth? He's not fickle and He doesn't flip flop. That's the Mormon God---polygamy, no polygamy, polygamy--no polygamy---maybe later. Written in stone indicates permanence. So does the fact the 10 were kept inside the ark of the testament, but the ceremonial laws were kept outside the ark. The new covenant was set up back in ancient Israel--
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

mmksparbud said:

No, He hasn't taught any such thing. He wrote it on stone with His own hand and you think He's going to be vague about changing it?

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I didn't say anything about him being vague. LOL

Albion said:

I didn't say anything about him being vague. LOL

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Well---there certainly is no plain text that states GOD has changed the 7th day Sabbath to the 1st day of the week. so, as far as I am concerned, the 7th day stands. You are free to do as you please.

Concord1968 said:

AKA "Trail of Blood". I don't think very many orthodox Baptists believe that any more. Maybe a few fringe IFBs.

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Indeed, I have many Baptist friends an am a strong supporter of Dr. al Mohler, and none of them are into Landmarkism.

mmksparbud said:

I never said it was honored exclusively! It's just that people think Sunday was honored exclusively unless you were Jewish which is far from true!! And many insist that it is only an SDA thing when it has been kept throughout history---God has always kept His remnant.

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So based on this, you would be comfortable asserting that, for instance, the Eastern Orthodox or Coptic Orthodox churches keep the sabbath, because they have important worship services on Saturday, even though their principle liturgy is on Sunday?

God is eternal. Before there were any days, before time itself, God simply is.
The eighth day, the Lord's day, is eternal. When we enter into God's kingdom by being baptised into His death, we rise to the eighth day, where there are no more days. We enter into eternity. The eighth days supersedes the Sabbath because it is outside the weekly cycle of days.

prodromos said:

God is eternal. Before there were any days, before time itself, God simply is.
The eighth day, the Lord's day, is eternal. When we enter into God's kingdom by being baptised into His death, we rise to the eighth day, where there are no more days. We enter into eternity. The eighth days supersedes the Sabbath because it is outside the weekly cycle of days.

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Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

God gave us the sun, moon and stars :
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God gave this earth it's cycles of time. And they do not change. The new earth :
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

It says there is no need of the sunlight for the Lord God giveth them light----it does not say there is no sun. Isa. says the moon and our time cycles will still be there----Time will have lost it's deep need though---for eternity makes it unimportant. But it will still be Sabbath to Sabbath and we will still gather to worship God on that day.

God may have no time in His realm, but He made us to be in this realm, and for us---there will still be our time cycles.

The Liturgist said:

So based on this, you would be comfortable asserting that, for instance, the Eastern Orthodox or Coptic Orthodox churches keep the sabbath, because they have important worship services on Saturday, even though their principle liturgy is on Sunday?

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Can't really say---I've never deeply studied them, or known any. I will say this---Until there is a verse found in the bible where God has said otherwise---for me, the 7th day stands as the Sabbath. Esp. with what Isaiah has to say on the matter.

mmksparbud said:

Well---there certainly is no plain text that states GOD has changed the 7th day Sabbath to the 1st day of the week. so, as far as I am concerned, the 7th day stands. You are free to do as you please.

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There is no plain text that states God has changed the day of rest from the 7th to any other day however...

In 2 Kings 5 the story of Naaman, which btw upset a lot of Jews in a synagogue when Jesus referred to him makes for a rather interesting response and word given by Elijah. "Go in PEACE".

Basically he'll be going into a pagan temple in the future because of his circumstances. God let's him leave and has neither instructed Naaman to keep the Sabbath, nor tells him to stay out of a pagan temple. Instead he acquires some earth which he'll use to worship God on his own according to ancient traditions at that time.

In my view it's unnecessary to influence gentiles through theological means to keep the Sabbath. Likewise being a gentile we shouldn't stop other gentiles from freely keeping the Sabbath if that is how they receive the Gospel. It pretty much is a two edged sword as an issue, it can cut both ways.

It's strange that people still debate something that was resolved in the First Council. This was no mere council of bishops either - but the apostles themselves. They stated explicitly what parts of the Torah for Gentiles to uphold and what they didn't have to. That is, to stay away from idols, eating animals not properly slain, and sexuality immorality. And if that wasn't enough, Paul constantly reiterated these points, when Judaizers kept trying to inflict people with diets, circumcision, and Sabbath. How stubborn can you be to keep on ignoring it?

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day." - Colosians 2:16

The Kingdom of God is not a matter of mere culture and things seen with the eyes and experienced through materialism. Rather, it's a Kingdom of the Spirit and eternity. And while the Jews were given the first revelations of God, and they should be honored for that, things have moved on in the Church. As Jesus said to the Samaritan woman:

“Woman, believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the father seeks. God is a Spirit and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” - John 4:21-24

mmksparbud said:

Well---there certainly is no plain text that states GOD has changed the 7th day Sabbath to the 1st day of the week. so, as far as I am concerned, the 7th day stands. You are free to do as you please.

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...and what I "do" is abide by the Bible in this regard.

In 1 Cor. 16:2 and Acts 20:7 the word of God makes it more than clear that Sunday was the normal meeting day of the apostolic church--and why that was. If that had been a wrongful decision on the part of the new church, I trust that the Bible would have condemned it instead of affirming it.

Norbert L said:

There is no plain text that states God has changed the day of rest from the 7th to any other day however...

In 2 Kings 5 the story of Naaman, which btw upset a lot of Jews in a synagogue when Jesus referred to him makes for a rather interesting response and word given by Elijah. "Go in PEACE".

Basically he'll be going into a pagan temple in the future because of his circumstances. God let's him leave and has neither instructed Naaman to keep the Sabbath, nor tells him to stay out of a pagan temple. Instead he acquires some earth which he'll use to worship God on his own according to ancient traditions at that time.

In my view it's unnecessary to influence gentiles through theological means to keep the Sabbath. Likewise being a gentile we shouldn't stop other gentiles from freely keeping the Sabbath if that is how they receive the Gospel. It pretty much is a two edged sword as an issue, it can cut both ways.

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Thank you---there is no command from God contradicting the 7th day --so it remains---you can dance around Naaman all you want---the commandment stands---and it is quite an extraordinary thing to take one of God's commandments---just this one, and say it is a burden to the gentiles when every gentile that came with the mixed multitude and since then, kept it. If it is not OK to murder, steal, dishonor parents, lie and all the rest---then the 4th commandment is no greater a burden then do not murder a nagging wife. By all means---let's not influence the gentiles by theological means into not stealing, and let's just go ahead and say they can steal and take the name of God in vain. It is the only one out of the 10 that anyone has a problem with because it affects their lifestyle and they do wish to be inconvenienced. It is also the only commandment where God has His name on it as a sign of the Creator God that He is and is a symbol of His magnificent act in creating this world and everything in it.
It's His mark--His statement of who He is as the Creator and everyone wants to do away with the only one that He says to "REMEMBER."
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

They are not kept to get saved----they are kept because we are saved and out of love for God. He asks for one day out of 7 and asks for us to follow 10 rules that end up keeping us happy anyway. He gave His life for us, He offers eternal lfie in exchange with a new earth with everything we could possible want in it and it is all too much for us to do???

Albion said:

...and what I "do" is abide by the Bible in this regard.

In 1 Cor. 16:2 and Acts 20:7 the word of God makes it more than clear that Sunday was the normal meeting day of the apostolic church--and why that was. If that had been a wrongful decision on the part of the new church, I trust that the Bible would have condemned it instead of affirming it.

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It shows no such thing--not one verse says this was a day to worship God.

In the New Testament, there are well over 80+ references to the Seventh-Day Sabbath and only 8 references to the First Day of the week. In Acts chapter 18 alone, which was approximately 21 years AFTER the resurrection, you can find the day that Paul was accustomed to keeping holy eluded to 78 times! (see verses 4 & 11 and chapter 17:2 for Paul's customary day of worship).
In regard to the First-Day texts, here they are--Matthew 28:1 // Luke 23:50-56 through 24:1-3 // Mark 16:1-4 // Mark 16:9-11 // John 20:1 // John 20:19 // 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 // Acts 20:7-11. These are the ONLY references to the First-Day of the week. None of which have a commend for a change of the Holy Day, a command for worship, or anything of the sort.
Mark wrote his gospel anywhere from 10-30 years after the cross and mentions not a thing about any change. John's gospel was written about 60 years after Jesus was resurrected and was also silent about any sort of "Holy Day" change. He simply tells of the same event as the other gospel writers. If you notice, Mark 16:1-4 actually refers to both Marys waiting until the Sabbath had past to go anoint Jesus on the First-Day of the week.
Now, in reference to the other two verse sections, 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 & Acts 20:7-11, many different ideas are out there for what these verses really mean. Honestly, the truth is in the texts! In 1 Corinthians 16:1-3, some would say this is an offering being taken at a Sunday (First-Day) morning church service. But the text doesn’t say that. Notice this was an offering “for the saints” and not “of the saints.” Also take note that they were to “lay by him in store.” The actual Greek language reads, “Let each one of you put on one side and store up at home” (Weymouth); “store it up” (ESV); “put aside and save” (NASB). This was not a command to take offerings at church, but to store an offering up at home on Sunday. In other words, Paul was saying to store up an offering FIRST in the beginning of the week so when I (Paul) come, it will be ready for me to take with me. Why store up? 9. Read Acts 11:27-29. There was “great dearth”, or “famine” in Jerusalem. The disciples sent relief to help their “brethren” in Judaea. Also read Romans 15:25-28. This was a relief offering taken to help the Christians in Jerusalem who were experiencing a famine.
Now to Acts 20:7-11. This verse is one that some point to as evidence the disciples were worshiping on Sunday since they were "breaking bread and preaching". Let’s notice several things about this text.
First, preaching and breaking bread DOES NOT make a day holy. I, personally, have broken bread and listened to preaching on almost every day of the week. Breaking bread doesn’t mean they were celebrating a "communion service" at church. Look at Acts 2:46. They broke bread everyday and not just Sunday! In Acts 27:33-35, Paul broke bread with unbelievers. It meant they were simply eating together.
Secondly, this event actually takes place on Saturday night and not Sunday morning as many suppose. Notice Paul preached until midnight, there were "many lights" (it was dark outside), Eutychus fell asleep (it was late at night), and Paul preached until the "break of day" and then went on a trip. That is most likely why they were have food... to celebrate a possible last moment with Paul before he went on his journey.
Also, this was definitely the dark part of the first day of the week. Which would’ve actually been Saturday night (Genesis. 1:5, 8, "and Evening and Morning were the first day."). Paul preached Saturday night and left Sunday morning on a journey. He didn’t go to church on Sunday morning! This actually disproves Sunday keeping since Paul goes on a long journey on Sunday morning and doesn’t "keep it holy".
The Seventh-Day Sabbath was made Holy by God Himself in the creation week. He Rested, be Blessed it, and He Sanctified the Seventh-Day in the beginning. In Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8, the Bible says that God "does not change". Jesus Says "if you love Me, keep My commandments". In Isaiah 66:22 & 23, the LORD tells us that we will be worshiping Him "from one Sabbath to another" in heaven! It was also Jesus custom to worship, go to church, on the Seventh-Day Sabbath (Luke 4:16).
The Sabbath of the Bible was also given way before the first "Jew" existed. Refer to Exodus 16:25-30 to see that the Commandments of God and His Sabbath existed BEFORE Sinai.
So, if it was made Holy at the beginning, it was kept all throughout the Old Testament, Jesus kept it Holy, Paul kept it Holy, the Gentile converts kept it Holy, and the Lord says that we will worship Him on the Sabbath in Heaven, don't you think it is important to keep the Seventh-Day Holy now? After all, it is the 4th Commandment.
Finally, "Judaizing" is something that does not concern a Bible Christian. It was a phrase that originated in the council of Laodicea. It concerns the Roman church. If you want to be strictly a bible Christian, Jesus again says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." That definitely includes His "Sign" of sanctification between Him and His people (Ezekiel 20:12).

mmksparbud said:

you can dance around Naaman all you want

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The implications surrounding the events that happened to Naaman are fully obvious. Our God who changes not let a gentile who acknowledged Him as LORD go back to his country without needing him to keep the Sabbath. There no space to dance around that.