Conscience

[mukk_in]

Ezekiel 13:3 (NASB)

Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirits and have seen nothing

A servant of God is not as good as his/her own conscience. A holy servant of God is one who is led by the Spirit of God. Relying on our consciences, noble as they may be, to be our guide instead of the Holy Spirit deifies our conscience and dethrones God in our hearts. As Paul warned us in Romans 2:15, our consciences can deceive us. Depending on our proclivities our conscience may sometimes make us legalistic and other times lascivious. From that point of view it's easy to understand why both the Pharisees and the crowd were offended by Christ. To the Pharisees He was a drunk and a vagrant (Matthew 11:19), while to the crowd He was too hard and overly spiritual (John 6:60). As Christians we have no business being led by our conscience. Unless our consciences are submissive to the Holy Spirit and sanctified by Him, we risk being led astray by all kinds of teaching and heresy from both extremes.​

 

[Minister Monardo]

As Christians we have no business being led by our conscience. Unless our consciences are submissive to the Holy Spirit and sanctified by Him, we risk being led astray by all kinds of teaching and heresy from both extremes.

Christians are led by the Spirit, by way of our conscience.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
By the Holy Spirit, we are able to follow our conscience, in righteous judgment.
Acts 24:16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward
God and men.

A holy servant of God is one who is led by the Spirit of God. Relying on our consciences, noble as they may be, to be our guide instead of the Holy Spirit deifies our conscience and dethrones God in our hearts. As Paul warned us in Romans 2:15, our consciences can deceive us.

I do not find this admonition in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit convictions comes by
way of the conscience.
John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness,
and of judgment.
An unbeliever has a mind and conscience that are defiled.
Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving
nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
A functioning conscience is the character of a mature Christian in service to God
2 Corinthians 1:12 For our boasting is this: the testimony of our conscience that we conducted ourselves in the world in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom but by the grace
of God, and more abundantly toward you.
2 Corinthians 4:2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith,
2 Timothy 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day.
2 Timothy 3:9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
To ignore the Holy Spirit is to harden our heart.

 

[Someone12]

I think it depends on whether we have renewed our minds or not and the state of our soul and conscience. To the defiled, their conscience and judgement may be clouded so they should seek counsel.

As Titus 1.15 says to the pure all things are pure which includes the conscience

 

[biblelesson]

Ezekiel 13:3 (NASB)

Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirits and have seen nothing

A servant of God is not as good as his/her own conscience. A holy servant of God is one who is led by the Spirit of God. Relying on our consciences, noble as they may be, to be our guide instead of the Holy Spirit deifies our conscience and dethrones God in our hearts. As Paul warned us in Romans 2:15, our consciences can deceive us. Depending on our proclivities our conscience may sometimes make us legalistic and other times lascivious. From that point of view it's easy to understand why both the Pharisees and the crowd were offended by Christ. To the Pharisees He was a drunk and a vagrant (Matthew 11:19), while to the crowd He was too hard and overly spiritual (John 6:60). As Christians we have no business being led by our conscience. Unless our consciences are submissive to the Holy Spirit and sanctified by Him, we risk being led astray by all kinds of teaching and heresy from both extremes.​

Thank you for your post! Very, very much needed!

I can see there is a lot of misunderstanding about the Spirt and how the Spirit of God leads us. People have many opinions, and those who have experienced the beautiful Spirit of God with miracles, are being told that was not the Spirit, because they say, the Spirit of God is not some czar of heaven that comes down an imparts power into you. Well I think the role of the Holy Spirit is being misunderstood based on this statement.

The Holy Spirit is not our conscience as you have stated.

But the problem I think is we can't see the real issue when it comes to the Holy Spirit, and what He actually does.

The questions is if we can't see the Holy Spirit, and if we don't possess God's Power because God is a Spirit, then how can mortals experience a Power that they don't have? The obvious is it has to be GIVEN. And if it is GIVEN, then how can the mere mortal know that it was GIVEN? Our conscience is carnal. God will no use our carnal mind as a way to glorify Himself by His Spirit and guide us carnally. We have been crucified with Christ remember, and that's our corrupted conscience selves also, which includes our carnal minds.

So, you are right, no it cannot be our conscience. So now what? How do the carnal minded man experience the Holy Spirit?

First I see that there has to be a change in our "spirit;" not our conscience: Romans 8:16, "The Spirit beareth witness with our spirit...."

How does this change comes in our spirit so that the Holy Spirit can bear witness with our spirit? By becoming humble in spirit, not our conscience:

1 Peter 5:6, "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God that HE may exalt you in due time." (How will God exalt you in due time, by GIVEN you His Holy Spirit).

Matthew 11:28, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavey laden, and I will give you rest.
(come unto me is to humble ourselves. I will give you rest is the given of the Holy Spirit)

So, what does the Holy Spirit do? Provides power!:

Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me.....unto the uttermost part of the earth."

So no, the Holy Spirit which is GIVEN is not a czar. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit that witnesses with our spirit, and transforms us by giving us Power - to do what we could not do.

Do we know we have that power and not just in our conscience? Yes

You know when the POWER has been imparted to you. That's why Apostle Pauls tells us not to grieve the Holy Spirit because if we do, the Holy Spirit's Power will leave us until we humble ourselves again. Sometimes it takes many years for us to humble ourselves.

Th Holy Spirit "alway" come with miracles as well as Power (this is how you know you have the Spirit). Galatians 3:5, "He (GOD) therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

John 3:8, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

God will not make the Spirit a mystery to us. We just don't understand. To humble ourselves is very hard, so hard that we never are able to experience the Spirit. We must humble ourselves.

Here is my experience: Many times God has truly imparted the Power of His Spirit into ME, His Holy Spirit. And it's true. I knew without a doubt that what I received was God's Holy Spirit. Because what came were miracles. Situations worked out almost immediately. There was a shifting and a moving in my life. I was not the same person. My soul was transformed instantly to someone who loved everyone I saw. Instantly I did not possess any fear, bitterness, anger, worry, nothing. It was so amazing, I was a totally new person.

It's like my soul/spirit had been washed out and replaced with purity! This has happened many times, and each time, each time, I was "first walking in a humble spirit" which allowed GOD to "now" impart the Power of the Holy Spirit into to my spirit, which His Spirit "bared witness" with my spirit. The miracles are one of the proofs of the Spirit. Also the actual change in the person is another proof of the Spirit. You will know it. You will feel it. (John 3:8, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."). Hearth the sound thereof is another way of explaining feeling the "Spirit" being imparted into your "spirit" causing the change in you by God - your spirit sees the Holy Spirit/senses it and you see the Fruits of the Spirit in your life that cannot be denied. You don't see who does it, or when God does it, but you know when it is done. You know when you have the Power of the Spirit. That's what this scripture means. But we can grieve the Spirit and His Power will be withdrawn.

Christ says if you don't have His Spirit, we are none of His. We must allow God to GIVE us Christ's Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit. We must know we have the Spirit. We must know that we must humble ourselves for God to GIVE us HIS SPIRIT, with POWER, and with MIRACLES. We must know that when we grieve the Spirit, the Power will leave us until we humble ourselves again. And to grieve the Holy Spirit means we were not watchful. The Spirit is very sensitive. If we somehow allow ourselves to get upset and maybe said something wrong to someone, or became bitter for some reason, He will be withdrawn. So we must maintain a watchful spirit when we are in the Spirit.

When we can get ourselves to the point of dying to self - truly, the Spirit rises. Not our conscience.

We can also ask God for the Holy Spirit. Since Christians receives the earnest of the Spirit for our inheritance, we can ask that the Power of the Spirit be manifested in our lives if we have not been guided yet with that Power: to be our strength, our comforter, our guide, our helper, the New Man.

The Spirit take the control of self out of our hands, and because of that, we try and explain it.

 

[biblelesson]

Christians are led by the Spirit, by way of our conscience.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
By the Holy Spirit, we are able to follow our conscience, in righteous judgment.
Acts 24:16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward
God and men.

I want to point out that the scriptures quoted, Hebrews 9:14 is not talking about being led the Spirit by our conscience. It's saying our conscience will be purged by the Spirit. We have nothing to do with that operation.

The purpose of our conscience being considered here is to "Show the work of the law written in our hearts, our conscience also bearing witness, and our thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another - Romans 2:15. This is the work of the Holy Spirit "Himself." The work is being done for us. Not by us. We can't focus on our conscience, and then say, how am I being led as if to think our conscience dictates the Spirit, so we follow our conscience. That's not it.

What Apostle Paul is saying is to "allow!" Not do! Let it be this way. Not do it yourself. Let yourself allow it - the Spirit to change you!

For example, a lot of times Apostle Paul is explaining a result, not saying to do something. For example: Romans 8:1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. So I understand people will start to think they must now try as they may to walk not after the flesh, try as they may to walk after the Spirit. This would be impossible though. We are not being told to "walk after" in our own strength to walk, to do, to act. We are being told to let the One who can cause us to walk do it, therefore let it be done by the Spirit. Just like being given a gift: take this gift of strength that you don't have, so that you can walk in strength, and now you are walking in the Spirit. Your father picks you up to help you walk. His hands actually picks you up, lifts you and guide you to walk. Well without your father you would not be able to walk. That's the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does the actual lifting for your so that you can walk. We meet him when we become humble enough to meet him. Let no one tell you he does not come to do the work for your. We are dead in Christ. We can do nothing like Christ Jesus has told us.

When we think that we must do what the gospel says, then we miss it. We cannot do one thing in the gospel because it is all Spiritual. We have been crucified with Christ, we are dead. All the changes a Christian experience is because he/she has allowed the Spirit to it. Not themselves.

The confusion about this is mentioned in 2 Peter 3:16, "As also in all this his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Once we can get out of the habit of trying to do the gospel, instead of allow the gospel to be done to us by the Holy Spirit, then we can see that it is not the conscience of that dead man that's been crucified with christ, but that we have a new conscience that has been changed into the new man, not of our own strength, but by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I want to point out that the scriptures quoted, Hebrews 9:14 is not talking about being led the Spirit by our conscience. It's saying our conscience will be purged by the Spirit. We have nothing to do with that operation.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
By the Holy Spirit, we are able to follow our conscience, in righteous judgment.
Acts 24:16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward
God and men.

Just to be clear, "the blood of Christ through the eternal Spirit cleanses our conscience
from dead works to serve the living God". You said:
"We have nothing to do with that operation." Certainly not, he says the blood of Christ through the
eternal Spirit. Saying we have nothing to do with it seems obvious, and that statement was not
made, at least not by me. The verse does say that having our conscience cleansed does enable us to
serve the living God. Paul then says, in the other verse quoted:
"I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense". That places the responsibility on the believer to maintain a pure heart in relationship to God and one another.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith,
2 Timothy 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day.
2 Timothy 3:9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
To ignore the Holy Spirit is to harden our heart.

After adding 3 other verses that testify to the role of a pure conscience (same as 'clean'),
you are the only one who has ever described it as a "new conscience". My statements, supported
by these scriptures were:
"By the Holy Spirit, we are able to follow our conscience, in righteous judgment".
If we are to walk in the Spirit, be led by the Spirit, etc...Paul's point is that we maintain a pure
conscience by walking in obedience to the Holy Spirit. My final comment is the testimony of both
the Old and New Testaments:
"To ignore the Holy Spirit is to harden our heart". Obedience to the Voice of the Spirit being the
essential thing, we must be of pure conscience and pure of heart. That should be evident by the
testimony of the scriptures quoted.

 

[Minister Monardo]

The Spirit take the control of self out of our hands, and because of that, we try and explain it.

How does that align with the expected dynamic of believers in the fellowship of the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

"The Spirit taking control of the self"? Is that how you read the NT?
You seem to be describing believers devoid of free will.
That being so, no one would ever skip a meeting or make excuses for absences.
There would be none. I find people to still be people, but as they overcome the
weakness of the flesh by the power of the Spirit, they become more mature in Christ,
and able to lead others.

 

[biblelesson]

How does that align with the expected dynamic of believers in the fellowship of the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

"The Spirit taking control of the self"? Is that how you read the NT?
You seem to be describing believers devoid of free will.
That being so, no one would ever skip a meeting or make excuses for absences.
There would be none. I find people to still be people, but as they overcome the
weakness of the flesh by the power of the Spirit, they become more mature in Christ,
and able to lead others.

What I'm speaking of is what Apostle Paul told us to do, put off the Old Man. That's the flesh. Die to self. The "self" or "flesh" can have no place with the Spirit.

 

[Minister Monardo]

What I'm speaking of is what Apostle Paul told us to do, put off the Old Man. That's the flesh. Die to self. The "self" or "flesh" can have no place with the Spirit.

Okay. The topic is "Conscience".

 

[biblelesson]

How does that align with the expected dynamic of believers in the fellowship of the Spirit.


"The Spirit taking control of the self"? Is that how you read the NT?
You seem to be describing believers devoid of free will.

I would like to ask you a question? Can you perform miracles?

 

[biblelesson]

Okay. The topic is "Conscience".

The topic was that we don't rely on our conscience to be led by the Spirit. That's because our conscience cannot add to what the Holy Spirit does for us as believers. We have been crucified with Christ, and must put off the old man. The Power for us to have the proper conscience of mind and heart does not come from us, it come from the Power that is been given us by the Holy Spirit! Our conscience is corrupt as is the reason God crucified us on the cross with Christ. He only accept the New Man that has a clean pure conscience given by God by His Holy Spirit.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I would like to ask you a question? Can you perform miracles?

Wrong question, and even more off topic. What I can do is obey. If the result is a miracle of
God, than that is His work.
1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us,
and His love has been perfected in us.
There are many ways to experience a miracle.

 

[Minister Monardo]

The topic was that we don't rely on our conscience to be led by the Spirit. That's because our conscience cannot add to what the Holy Spirit does for us as believers. We have been crucified with Christ, and must put off the old man. The Power for us to have the proper conscience of mind and heart does not come from us, it come from the Power that is been given us by the Holy Spirit! Our conscience is corrupt as is the reason God crucified us on the cross with Christ. He only accept the New Man that has a clean pure conscience given by God by His Holy Spirit.

Now you are just repeating what you have already said, without making reference to what the
scriptures say about conscience. Having a conscience made pure by the Spirit must result
in obedience.
2 Corinthians 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Acts 24:16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward
God and men.

 

[biblelesson]

Having a conscience made pure by the Spirit must result
in obedience.

No, no, no! No it does not result in obedience or happend because of obedience. We are given a free gift of the Spirit. Not because of our obedience. See, what you are saying is because of your obedience, and what you have done, you have a conscience made pure by the Spirit. Thus giving yourself credit for what the Spirt does.

Like mukk_in said earlier, we dethrone God when we do this. He has given us a free gift. We have no power at all. Our obedience mean nothing to God, because His son died for us because of our disobedience. So why would God accept our obedience? So now, we are save by Grace. The Holy Spirit is a free gift given to us to give us Power to live holy the way God want's us to live. Humility is the key! Our conscience is cleared when we live by the Spirit that's given to us to enable us to live holy.

 

[Minister Monardo]

See, what you are saying is because of your obedience, and what you have done, you have a conscience made pure by the Spirit.

NO I did not . I said that the only way we can be obedient is because we are enabled by the Spirit.
Back to the verse that plainly states this:
Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
To serve the living God is to live in obedience to the Spirit given, not by a Law Code.
Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith
among all nations for His name.

Thus giving yourself credit for what the Spirt does.

I gave myself no such credit. Conscience is overwhelmingly Paul's word. A complete study, of which
I have provided only a partial list earlier, shows the essential nature toward obeying the Spirit.

Our obedience mean nothing to God, because His son died for us because of our disobedience. So why would God accept our obedience?

God does not accept us because we have been obedient. He now demands our obedience,
having been reconciled to Him by the death of His Son.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death
of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all
who obey Him.
The point being, if you fail to obey, you are without excuse, for Christ did not die in vain.
Yes! Yes! Yes and Amen! Will you obey Him?
He became the author of eternal salvation to all
who obey Him.
He became the author of eternal salvation to all
who obey Him.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Humility is the key!

Hey! I agree!

Our conscience is cleared when we live by the Spirit that's given to us to enable us to live holy.

Our conscience is cleansed by the shed blood. As you have stated, we have received the same
Spirit for holiness as a gift that raised Christ from the dead. We walk in obedience to that Spirit. Knowing that we are unable to do anything without that Spirit,
we understand what Paul is saying; for the fourth time.

Acts 24:16 This being so,
I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through
His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Minister Monardo]

The topic was that we don't rely on our conscience to be led by the Spirit.

That is actually exactly what Paul is teaching.

2 Corinthians 4:2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith,
2 Timothy 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day.
2 Timothy 3:9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
To ignore the Holy Spirit is to harden our heart.

Why do I have to keep posting these scriptures for you? Notice they all have one thing in
common: Conscience! The topic of the thread, and at the heart of Pauling theology.
G4893 - syneidēsis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
If you want to agree with mukk, that is fine by me. I am going to go with what Paul taught.

 

[biblelesson]

NO I did not . I said that the only way we can be obedient is because we are enabled by the Spirit.
Back to the verse that plainly states this:
Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
To serve the living God is to live in obedience to the Spirit given, not by a Law Code.
Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith
among all nations for His name.

I gave myself no such credit. Conscience is overwhelmingly Paul's word. A complete study, of which
I have provided only a partial list earlier, shows the essential nature toward obeying the Spirit.

God does not accept us because we have been obedient. He now demands our obedience,
having been reconciled to Him by the death of His Son.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death
of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all
who obey Him.
The point being, if you fail to obey, you are without excuse, for Christ did not die in vain.
Yes! Yes! Yes and Amen! Will you obey Him?
He became the author of eternal salvation to all
who obey Him.
He became the author of eternal salvation to all
who obey Him.

I don't know of any other way to explain what I'm saying. First we were not obedient, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

So our disobedience required a sacrifice by blood, the death of God's Son. The fact that God demands obedience required the death of His Son Jesus to cover our sins so that we would not be destroyed. It is through Jesus we are made obedient. Not us.

It is the blood that overshadow us and causes God to be satisfied with us, thereby imputing righteousness to us. Romans 4:24. Romans 5:16.

So in Christ by His blood we are seen as holy before God. Not of anything we do. And because we have believed on Christ, God gives us the Power to walk according to His righteousness. Not us. 2 Timothy 1:7.

What the gospel is asking us to do is to receive the gift of God and to walk by the Spirit, whereby we walk by the Fruits fo the Spirit, and we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16. We are not being asked to be obedient on our own strength, because we can't, but by the strength of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I don't know of any other way to explain what I'm saying. First we were not obedient, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

I do not need you to explain the Gospel to me. And I do not need you to make any more
attempts at convincing me that our conscience is not essential to obeying the Spirit.

 

[biblelesson]

I do not need you to explain the Gospel to me. And I do not need you to make any more
attempts at convincing me that our conscience is not essential to obeying the Spirit.

We are given a New Man, new creature in Christ, born again, new birth. That's the entire Power of the gospel to be able to do what's required by God in the gospel. We can't do anything with our conscience in the old man.