Confusing Verses

[Dominus Fidelis]

Are there any verses that confuse you?

Here is one I am wondering about...what do you all think Jesus is saying?

As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. - John 12:47

Seems to support OSAS-type of thinking, but there are so many other verses that contradict OSAS, so what does it mean?

I think it probably means that it is not Jesus 'the man' that will judge them, but God...the next few verses seem to explain this...

Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.

 

[prodromos]

Why don't you read homilies on John by the church fathers. Better to ask the saints than this bunch of sinners (of which I am the worst).

Saint Augustine, tractates on John
Saint John Chrysostom, homilies on John

John.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Why don't you read homilies on John by the church fathers. Better to ask the saints than this bunch of sinners (of which I am the worst).

Saint Augustine, tractates on John
Saint John Chrysostom, homilies on John

John.

Ok, here are St Augustine's thoughts on the verse in question:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-07/npnf1-07-59.htm#P2349_1423604

5. "And if any man," He says, "hear my words, and keep them not, I judge him not." Remember what I know you have heard in former lessons; and if any of you have forgotten, recall it: and those of you who were absent then, but are present now, hear how it is that the Son saith, "I judge him not," while in another place He says, "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son;"11 namely, that thereby we are to understand, It is not now that I judge him. And why not now? Listen to the sequel: "For I am not come," He says, "to judge the world, but to save the world;" that is, to bring the world into a state of salvation. Now, therefore, is the season of mercy, afterwards will be the time for judgment: for He says, "I will sing to Thee, O Lord, of mercy and judgment."12

6. But see also what He says of that future judgment in the end: "He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." He says not, He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, I judge him not at the last day; for had He said so, I do not see how it could have been else than contradictory of that other statement, when He says, "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." But when He said, "He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one to judge him," and, for the information of those who were waiting to hear who that one was, went on to add, "The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day," He made it sufficiently manifest that He Himself would then be the judge. For it was of Himself He spake, Himself He announced, and Himself He set forth as the gate whereby He entered as the Shepherd to His sheep. In one way, therefore, will those be judged who have never heard that word, in another way those who have heard and despised. "For as many as have sinned without law," says the apostle, "shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law."13

Ok, I'm even more confused now...can you translate?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Ok, I found this nice explanation...

47. If any man hear my words. After having spoken concerning his grace, and exhorted his disciples to steady faith, he now begins to strike the rebellious, though even here he mitigates the severity due to the wickedness of those who deliberately -- as it were -- reject God; for he delays to pronounce judgment on them, because, on the contrary, he has come for the salvation of all. In the first place, we ought to understand that he does not speak here of all unbelievers without distinction, but of those who, knowingly and willingly, reject the doctrine of the Gospel which has been exhibited to them. Why then does Christ not choose to condemn them? It is because he lays aside for a time the office of a judge, and offers salvation to all without reserve, and stretches out his arms to embrace all, that all may be the more encouraged to repent. And yet there is a circumstance of no small moment, by which he points out the aggravation of the crime, if they reject an invitation so kind and gracious, for it is as if he had said, "Lo, I am here to invite all, and, forgetting the character of a judge, I have this as my single object, to persuade all, and to rescue from destruction those who are already twice ruined." No man, therefore, is condemned on account of having despised the Gospel, except he who, disdaining the lovely message of salvation, has chosen of his own accord to draw down destruction on himself.

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol35/htm/ii.ix.htm

So Jesus was being open and inviting of all in his present speech, and not judging anyone at the time of His mission on earth, but He does say there will be a judgement at a later time.

The freaky thing is that this commentary is by John Calvin!! (I thought Calvin was against personal "choice" determining your salvation.)

 

[Benedicta00]

Defenders,

It means that Jesus doesn't judge until the last day.

 

[Preachers12]

Are there any verses that confuse you?

Here is one I am wondering about...what do you all think Jesus is saying?

As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. - John 12:47

Seems to support OSAS-type of thinking, but there are so many other verses that contradict OSAS, so what does it mean?

I think it probably means that it is not Jesus 'the man' that will judge them, but God...the next few verses seem to explain this...

Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.

DefensOrFidei, God give you Peace.

Think about how St. John uses the term "judgement" and "judge" in other parts of his Gospel. It doesn't have the same meaning that we tend to automatically assign to it and as I have seen done in some of the responses.

God Bless,
P12