Confused (Catholic Responses Only Please)

[Chris†opher Paul]

Ok, I read this joint document by Lutheran Churches and the RCC:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/jddj.htm

According to Catholicism, what part do works play in salvation, if any, since we are justified by grace through faith.

Do they keep us "saved" once we are justified?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I am curious about Jesus' words:

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. for I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matt 25:34-46

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

James explains that works "complete the faith", and that "faith without works is dead".

But does this mean that works come from real faith, or that we cooperate in making our own faith complete by doing works?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Also, if grace and faith are a gift of God, unmerited, what part do we have in having our faith? Can we "control" this faith, or is it unchanging?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Continuing the conversation with myself...

--

1. JUSTIFICATION

Not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man . . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
{Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Jan. 13, 1547, chapters 7,8}

Justification, according to Catholicism and Trent, is a true eradication of sin. On the other hand it is a supernatural sanctifying and renewal of the inner man. Protestantism's teaching of the merely external imputation of Jesus Christ's justice was rejected by Trent as heretical. Catholicism holds that true faith in Jesus Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works, without which spiritual growth is impossible. In this way, good works are necessary for salvation. Such a statement and view makes Protestants uncomfortable. Without denying the importance of good works, Protestantism tends to see them as symptoms of the necessary imputed justification, rather than as necessities in their own right.

Catholicism does not teach that one is saved by good works apart from wholly unmerited grace from God, or apart from faith or the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. Rather, the Catholic view is that faith and good works are intrinsically and inevitably intertwined, as St. James clearly states ("faith without works is dead"). A person cannot save himself by his own works (i.e., not preceded by God's grace and supernatural assistance).


http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ52.HTM

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

So we are saved by our good deeds and our faith, but both are made possible by God's grace, with which we have the responsibility to cooperate.

Do I have that right?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

But then I am confused by:

"Catholicism holds that true faith in Jesus Christ is not saving faith unless it bears fruit in good works"

I thought God gave us our faith as a part of justification. Is it not "saving" faith at that point? Must it be cultivated by both God and us?

And if so, why does it say:

"Justification, according to Catholicism and Trent, is a true eradication of sin."

How are we not saved at the point of justification if sin is eradicated at justification? (if we must cultivate faith into saving faith after justification then what happens to someone that dies before having the chance of doing that)

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I love talking to myself apparently...

--

Pelagianism "works based righteousness meaning that man can be justified through his own works apart from God's grace" was condemned by the RCC in 529 AD.

Trent states unequivocally:

"If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema."

So, we are justified by God through our works aided by God's grace?

And if so, why did Trent also say:

"None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification."
{Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Jan. 13, 1547, chapters 7,8}

It seems like justification and salvation are being confused even by Trent?

 

[Hoonbaba]

Hi Christopher,

Maybe I shouldn't respond (since I'm not Catholic), but here's how I understand justification by faith and works.

Usually, it's easy for a protestant to think that 'justification by faith and works' sounds like it contradicts Eph 2:8. But that's just the problem: Eph 2:8 mentions being saved by grace, not by works. But this 'works' is referring to works of the law. If you read Romans you can find clear parallels with this verse (I just don't remember exactly what verse).

In anycase, there's 2 types of works:

1) Works of the law

2) Works of righteousness

In Eph 2:8, Paul was referring to works of the law, since the law brings death (Rom 8:2).

Now, we know that salvation is a gift graciously given by God. Thus, we don't do anything to earn salvation. However, once a believer is given new life, he/she must walk with our Lord. In other words, believers walk to maintain salvation. That's why scripture says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12), because salvation is a process:

1) We are saved (Eph 2:8)
2) We are being saved (1 Cor 1:18)
3) We will be saved (Mark 13:13)

That would explain why Jesus tells us that those who are his sheep WILL abide in him and follow him, but if the believer doesn't continually remain in Christ, then he/she will be cut off (check out John 15:1-6). The Christian life is no joke (Luke 9:23).

So for the Christian, grace has been given to believe in God and also to do the good works. It's up to the Christian to remain in Christ (again, check out John 15:1-6).

Basically, I think the 2nd half of Gal 5:6 sums up the 'confusion' between James theology and Paul's theology:

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. " (Gal 5:6)

Hope this helped =)

God bless!

-Jason
P.S. It's interesting to know that some Reformed brethren say that justification is by faith alone....but some define 'faith' to refer to an active, living, risk-taking, God fearing faith =)

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Well, if your not Catholic, you sure sound like it!

And yes, I am refering to works of righteousness, not works of the Jewish law, the latter being condemned by Paul.

Now, we know that salvation is a gift graciously given by God. Thus, we don't do anything to earn salvation.

But we must do something to stay in it, right? (But even this is aided by God.)

Is that right?

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Chris†opher Paul
Well, if your not Catholic, you sure sound like it!

And yes, I am refering to works of righteousness, not works of the Jewish law, the latter being condemned by Paul.

Hi Christopher,

I used to be very anti-Catholic for awhile.  But I've done my share of research and now I agree with many Catholic doctrines and so I don't have much of a problem with Catholicism.  But I'm still a protestant At the moment, I don't plan on becoming Catholic any time soon.  God will lead me to Rome if/when He desires =)

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Hoonbaba]

By the way,

My primary concern at the moment is walking with our Lord I love how the Catholic church has such a strong position when it comes to morality and ethics!  Sure, there's abuses in the Church, but in my opinion, their view on marriage, abortion, war, etc is incredible!

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Thanks!

John 15:1-6

1. I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.
3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned

Verse 3 says God gave us the justification first...

Verse 4 says that we cant bear the fruit on our own...

Both of those line up to Catholic doctrine.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Now the question, can we the "pruned believers," later "not remain in Him?"

It would seem so, else why would He give this warning?

"Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned"

Also, from other Scripture, it is absolutely clear to me that OSAS is false.

Thanks so much Hoon!

 

[chelcb]

Chris Paul,

Works are the air that we breathe in our life of grace. We are given the gift of a sanctified soul in baptism and when we are confirmed we are then sealed with the gifts of the spirit and our sanctification is complete. We must however stay in grace if we are to be justified.

Understand that baptism removes original sin and original sin is a contracted sin, not a committed sin. This is what the bible means by, we can not work for righteousness but is freely given grace. It is THAT grace that saves us, with out THAT grace our works are dead and but fitly rags. But we MUST build on that life of grace as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3. Our works are the things that we build our life of grace up with.

We are not perfect but we are forgiven (of original sin) what happens when we commit venial sins which are imperfections, not really sin in the deadly sense that they separates us from God. An imperfection can not cause separation from God but they do require ‘works’ in order to but back the air into our life of grace with God. If we did not do ‘works’ both charitable works, like feeding the poor or spiritual works like praying for others OR the one and main one that is usually not thought of as a work, living out our state in life, seeing it as our road to holiness and perfection we will choke out the life of grace because we are depriving it the air that it needs to breathe in order to persevere. Ways to perfection in our state; example: If you are married, coming home and making sacrifices for you spouse like, you do the cooking this time. Little things like that keep the grace flowing in the marriage when offered up in a spirit of self-sacrifice and our vocation is our holiness. There are also times of big sacrifices like dealing with an illness of a spouse or something like that. This is how we become like Jesus. A lot of Saints learned this path to holiness such as Little Flower, I believe she called this “the little way” it was her “elevator to heaven” she made sacrafices according to her state in lfe.

Now what is it that gets us there, is it our works? NO! it is the grace of God that he forgave us of Adam’s debt that we suffered the penalty of and by the grace of God that forgives us of our personal sins. It is the grace of God that our works causes to flow from him to us to one another. I am sure you have heard of the saying “love makes the world go around.”

We must understand that is not our own strength or our own goodness that brings this about. It is all grace working through the Holy Spirit. This is what it is to cooperate with grace, we cooperate by doing our part but it is the Holy Spirit that is the one working in us through our works, it is he that has the power to change us not our works.

There is more about how works effects us when we are in a state of Mortal sin and how it can spare us purgatory but I think this might be enough for now.

Let me know if this has helped.

 

[LightHearted]

I'm pretty bad at debating, but I might be able to explain a couple things to you.

Most Catholics believe that we are saved by grace, and through that grace we do the works. Meaning that if we weren't saved, why would we do the works? The two go hand in hand.

I'm not sure if I understood your last post. Are you asking if a person can be lost once they're saved?

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by Chris†opher Paul
Now the question, can we the "pruned believers," later "not remain in Him?"

It would seem so, else why would He give this warning?

"Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned"

Also, from other Scripture, it is absolutely clear to me that OSAS is false.

Thanks so much Hoon!

But wait a second there!  It really depends on how your define 'OSAS'

There seems to be confusion with this phrase.  Some say OSAS means, 'believe in God and you go to heaven simply for believing'.

But here's what Calvinists teach:  OSAS = "Those who God predestined will go to heaven"

In other words, from God's sovereign perspective, those who end up in heaven were truly OSAS, since God foreknew who would enter heaven.  (So it's all a matter of how OSAS is understood/define)

The problem is we don't know who the 'predestined' are =) So OSAS can be true (depending on how you understand the phrase).  God even mentions those who are predestined (Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11) =)

Weird isn't it? =)

-Jason

P.S.  I don't hold on to the 'believe in God and you go to heaven' definition of OSAS.  I think prefer the Catholic position and I have no problem with the Calvinist understanding of OSAS (since it's just one perspective which seems to fit with the Catholic position)

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Correction:

I believe God knew in advance who would accept Him.

I dont believe that once you are in a state of salvation you automatically stay there forever, as if no sin can break that.

 

[BrianInNC]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
But wait a second there!  It really depends on how your define 'OSAS'

There seems to be confusion with this phrase.  Some say OSAS means, 'believe in God and you go to heaven simply for believing'.

But here's what Calvinists teach:  OSAS = "Those who God predestined will go to heaven"

In other words, from God's sovereign perspective, those who end up in heaven were truly OSAS, since God foreknew who would enter heaven.  (So it's all a matter of how OSAS is understood/define)

 

That is dogmatic Catholic teaching as well (though not a dogma that we spend much time discussing).

The problem is we don't know who the 'predestined' are =) So OSAS can be true (depending on how you understand the phrase).  God even mentions those who are predestined (Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:5, Eph 1:11) =)

***

I don't hold on to the 'believe in God and you go to heaven' definition of OSAS.  I think prefer the Catholic position and I have no problem with the Calvinist understanding of OSAS (since it's just one perspective which seems to fit with the Catholic position)

 

The Catholic and Calvinist positions here are very close (Augustine looms prominent in both theological family trees).  It's the "I'm saved; my place in Heaven is secure" (or what I term "Eternal Security") that is the objectionable doctrine.

 

Brian

 

[Miss Shelby]

Welcome Brian. I've seen you at That Other Board. Glad you made it over here.

Michelle