Confused by Cardinal Ratzinger Statement. Did He Really Say This?

[bigsierra]

What did he mean, if he did?
-----------------

"Eucharistic devotion such as is noted in the silent visit by the devout
in church must not be thought of as a conversation with God. This would
assume that God was present there locally and in a confined way. To
justify such an assertion shows a lack of understanding of the
Christological mysteries of the very concept of God. This is repugnant to
the serious thinking of the man who knows about the omnipresence of God.
To go to Church on the ground that one can visit God Who is present there
is a senseless act which modern man rightfully rejects."

DIE SACRAMENTALE BEGRUNDUNG CHRISTLIKER EXISTEND
Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[Annabel Lee]

Hi bigsierra, do you have a link?

 

[QuantaCura]

When did he say this?

 

[bigsierra]

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/uno1.html is where I originally saw it. It looks like schismatics jump all over it.

 

[bigsierra]

When did he say this?

One site I founds had this listed:
Joseph Ratzinger, "Die Sakramentale Begründung Christlicher Existenz," The Sacramental Reason for Christian Existence, 1966, Kyrios Publishing, Freising-Meitingen, Germany

If 1966 is right, it looks like it was eons ago.

 

[QuantaCura]

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/uno1.html is where I originally saw it. It looks like schismatics jump all over it.

I've read that he had some lliberal tendencies in his early years and that the ultra-liberalism at the school where he was a professor actually was what led him to retreat into traditional orthodoxy.

It's actually similar to what happened to one of my favorite popes: Pius IX. When elected, he was very liberal and made some conessions to the secularists. Soon the liberals began running amok and, well, read the Syllabus of Errors to see how he turned out.

 

[FullyMT]

It sorta makes sense. He's saying that people who go into a church to adore Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament for the sole reason of wanting to talk to Him are blind to the fact that they can talk to Him anywhere they are, because God can talk and listen to us anywhere.
Then Cardinal Ratzinger was pointing out that the notion that we can only talk to God inside a church is a wrong one.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Apparently the book was written in 1966. Here is a non-schismatic site that discusses the statement.
Didn't Cardinal Ratzinger help develop the Novus Ordo mass?
http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/pope-benedict-print.htm

 

[QuantaCura]

Didn't Cardinal Ratzinger help develop the change in the Mass (VaticanII)

Doubtful, since he has criticized the new Mass calling it a banal on-the-spot fabrication that departed from the natural organic development that took place over time. But it's possible that he had a change in heart.

 

[isshinwhat]

Read THE RHINE FLOWS INTO THE TIBER A History of Vatican II for a glimpse into the proceedings of the Second Vatican Council. Cardinal Ratzinger was much more liberal than he is believed to be now.

 

[FullyMT]

I feel like my statement's been entirely ignored (and this wouldn't be the first time :o)

 

[Paul S]

It sorta makes sense. He's saying that people who go into a church to adore Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament for the sole reason of wanting to talk to Him are blind to the fact that they can talk to Him anywhere they are, because God can talk and listen to us anywhere.
Then Cardinal Ratzinger was pointing out that the notion that we can only talk to God inside a church is a wrong one.

He's saying Eucharistic Adoration is senseless, since God is everywhere. That ignores the Real Presence, which is different from God's spiritual presence everywhere.

But, he was more liberal in the days of Vatican II, and, as Pope, cannot teach the Real Presence is false.

 

[Rising_Suns]

since he has criticized the new Mass calling it a banal on-the-spot fabrication that departed from the natural organic development that took place over time. But it's possible that he had a change in heart.

Source?

 

[FullyMT]

Eucharistic devotion such as is noted in the silent visit by the devout
in church must not be thought of as a conversation with God.

Here he is *only* talking about the idea that adoration is only about conversing with God. Not anything about the worship of the Son in adoration.

This would
assume that God was present there locally and in a confined way

That's what jumped at me as if to say that he was guarding against the idea that God is not omnipresent.

I think he is saying that Eucharistic Adoration in just wanting to *talk* to God is senseless. I can talk to God right now, and, He still hears me just the same as He would if I was sitting with the Son in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. I would think of Eucharistic Adoration as *more* than just a conversation with Him, but also including in the conversation particular worship and prayer. Ratzinger was not speaking of worship, but only the conversation aspect.
(I feel like I just repeated myself a million times in that).

 

[CaDan]

Cardinal Ratzinger / Pope Benedict is a deep and subtle thinker. He is not just a "traditionalist".

 

[QuantaCura]

Source?

"What happened at the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living, process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it - as in a manufacturing process - with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product." ---Cardinal Josef Ratzinger

From the preface to "Reforms of the Roman Liturgy Its Problems and Background" by Monsignor Klaus Gamber, 1993​

 

[bigsierra]

Cardinal Ratzinger / Pope Benedict is a deep and subtle thinker. He is not just a "traditionalist".

That quote from him sounds anything but traditionalist.

 

[plainswolf]

"What happened at the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living, process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it - as in a manufacturing process - with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product." ---Cardinal Josef Ratzinger

From the preface to "Reforms of the Roman Liturgy Its Problems and Background" by Monsignor Klaus Gamber, 1993​

That's the one..

The Reform of the Roman Liturgy


.

 

[Paul S]

Here he is *only* talking about the idea that adoration is only about conversing with God. Not anything about the worship of the Son in adoration.

He didn't say "must not be thought of as only a conversation with God", but not to think of it that way at all. God is present in the Eucharist in a "local and confined way", just as He was when He walked the earth as a man.

This last part, "To go to Church on the ground that one can visit God Who is present there is a senseless act which modern man rightfully rejects", just sounds like a complete denial of the Real Presence. We can visit God at church in a special way which we cannot anywhere else.

I'm not too worried about all this, because the Pope has become less liberal from his Vatican II days, plus there's the infallibility thing. But, we don't need to treat every statement of every bishop, even ones who later become Pope, as orthodox if they're not.

Cardinal Ratzinger is also responsible for the phrase in Lumen Gentium that "the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church", rather than "the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church". The "subsists" language can easily be interpreted as meaning the Church of Christ is bigger than the Catholic Church, which it is not. All those who are saved are somehow part of the Church, by baptism of water, blood, or desire.

 

[Rising_Suns]

"What happened at the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living, process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it - as in a manufacturing process - with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product." ---Cardinal Josef Ratzinger

From the preface to "Reforms of the Roman Liturgy Its Problems and Background" by Monsignor Klaus Gamber, 1993​

Could you reference me to the context of this statement?