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Confused Baptist on Trinity

yungjah

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Good day all. Decided to take my concerns to a forum and frankly, I am a new member of this site. Joined today. I do hope that through this site, I can grow spiritually as I try to understand who God is.

I have started reading my bible since the late part of last year from the book of Genesis, now at Ezekiel due to inconsistency with my reading plan.

I've been baffled while trying to understand the trinity for quiet some time and just yesterday, something else came up regards Virgin Mary and Joseph.

Picture my confusion with regards the Trinity. While Jesus was on the cross, He made few statements, one of which was, "Father, do not forsake me." There are few verses with the line, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Also, to take in mind, if God created the earth and all that is it in [according to the book of Genesis], why is that in the New Testament we read [or heard] about Virgin Mary giving birth to Jesus?

Through the reading of the old testament up to Ezekiel, I realize that Jesus' name was never mentioned. It is always God. Am I to interpret that Jesus came into existence to minister the gospel in human form like a niche to God? In other words, understanding that the trinity is in three forms, each played a role.
 
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98cwitr

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What Jesus was doing was quoting Psalm 22. This is why they replied "Look! He calls to Elijah"

Psalm 22 New International Version (NIV)

Psalm 22[a]
For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

In my understanding of the Trinity, the easiest way I explain is that God the Father and God the Son are One because of the Holy Spirit. They have the exact same Spirit, and they are all three equivalent.
 
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yungjah

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Thanks for responding 98cwitr.

But somehow I believe David was questioning God from Psalm 22. It was a time when David thought that God was hiding from him in times of trouble. Verse 11 pretty much give a good incite. It stated, "Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help." Although in verse 16, it does sound like Jesus' crucifixion. But the entire chapter was about David's faith in God.

I honestly think that it's a continuation from chapters 20 and 21.

I've heard God the Father and God the Son before, but somehow I am still seeking further clarifications.
 
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classicalhero

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Jesus came to earth as a man, but before he took physical form, he was known and the angel of the LORD. At that time he didn't have a physical body, but could take the appearance of one until he fully became man at the incarnation.
 
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1watchman

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Yungjah, it sounds like you are in confusion by starting at the book of Genesis. One should start at the Gospels to see salvation ---especially reading all of John and the book of Romans to understand God's "...so great salvation". One can later do a study of the OT and history. Without the new life in Christ (John 3; John 3:36; 1 Jn. 5:11-12) one is left to their own reasoning without the Holy Spirit to teach one.

As to deity, one can see that in the Gospel by John, so I recommend a prayerful reading of it first. Look up friend!
 
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Bluelion

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Jesus was refer to as Angel of the Lord, also with Joshua when Israel came out to conquer Jericho He appeared as the commander of Heavenly armies.

Did Jesus claim to be God yes.
He said before Abraham was I am, taking the name of God at the burning bush. He also said Me and My Father are one and the same. He also said if you have seen me you have seen The Father.

Jesus did not say father do not forsake me, He said Father why have you forsaken me. The reason is God looked away from Jesus on the cross because Jesus took on the sin of the world and The Father could not look at His own son in that state. That is how much God can not stand sin.

The Father is all spirit, Jesus is manifestation of the Spirit because you can not see God, but you can see Jesus. The Holy Spirit is Spirit not a whole lot can really describe Him in this world. We can see His works in Acts.

God The Father, Son, And Holy Spirit. 3 person of God equal in power subordinate duties, all God.
 
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yungjah

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Thanks for the responses so far [classicalhero, 1watchman & bluelion].

@ classicalhero, I understand.

@ 1watchman, my aim is to read the entire books of the bible. But the reason for my post was because I had stuff on my mind that I needed answers for. The OT does have alot to say, stuff I didn't know exist in the those days. Our times aint different.

@ Bluelion...thanks for the correction re: why have you forsaken me. So I manage to get a picture that Jesus appeared as a man for us to see Him, hence He was here to preach the gospel and heal those that were sick. But you said God could not bear the state of Jesus' condition, now I am confuse. The three are in one, and I should think all work together. It's like saying one cannot do without the other. For example, if we place our hand on a hot stove, something in our brain will trigger to cause you to move that hand immediately to avoid severe burn. If you get what I am trying to say here, it's pretty much what I think regards Jesus. So God would already feel [or suffer] what Jesus is going through even though He is in physical form.
 
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food4thought

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Good day all. Decided to take my concerns to a forum and frankly, I am a new member of this site. Joined today. I do hope that through this site, I can grow spiritually as I try to understand who God is.

Welcome to Christian Forums yungjah.

I have started reading my bible since the late part of last year from the book of Genesis, now at Ezekiel due to inconsistency with my reading plan.

Yeah, many reading plans run you all over the Bible each day instead of just reading straight thru, and can get a bit confusing and even annoying at times. I recommend just reading straight thru if you really intend to read the entire Bible.

I've been baffled while trying to understand the trinity for quiet some time and just yesterday, something else came up regards Virgin Mary and Joseph.

Picture my confusion with regards the Trinity. While Jesus was on the cross, He made few statements, one of which was, "Father, do not forsake me." There are few verses with the line, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Also, to take in mind, if God created the earth and all that is it in [according to the book of Genesis], why is that in the New Testament we read [or heard] about Virgin Mary giving birth to Jesus?

There has been discussion, debate, cries of heresy, and much, much worse through the centuries with regard to how Jesus could be both man and God, so I trust you don't expect to resolve this issue on a message board without some mystery being left unresolved from a strictly philosophical perspective.

That said, the key passage regarding this is John 1:1-3. Before Jesus was born as a human, He pre-existed as the Word... God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Three personalities so unified in purpose and will as to be called One God. When the Word became flesh (John 1:14), the eternal Word emptied Himself of His Divine attributes, such as omnipresence, and took upon Himself a human nature (Philippians 2:5-11). The pre-existent eternal Word, who was, is, and always will be God, became a man who was born of a virgin and named Jesus. This man Jesus lived a perfect life, obedient to the Father in everything, and died on the cross for our sins. This Jesus, the man, is now exalted above everyone else, back to His position that He occupied from all eternity as the Word, except now He is human. Because Yahweh loves us, a man is now glorified as King of the universe.

Through the reading of the old testament up to Ezekiel, I realize that Jesus' name was never mentioned. It is always God.

All through the OT the name of God is Yahweh, or Jehovah, we're not sure how to pronounce it, and in most English translations this name of God is translated as "LORD" in all caps (as opposed to "Lord", which is usually a translation of the Hebrew word Adoni'). Yahweh means "I AM" in Hebrew, thus revealing much more of Jesus' meaning when He said to the Pharisees, "before Abraham was born, I AM." (John 8:58)

Am I to interpret that Jesus came into existence to minister the gospel in human form like a niche to God? In other words, understanding that the trinity is in three forms, each played a role.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, could you explain a bit more?
 
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Bluelion

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Thanks for the responses so far [classicalhero, 1watchman & bluelion].

@ classicalhero, I understand.

@ 1watchman, my aim is to read the entire books of the bible. But the reason for my post was because I had stuff on my mind that I needed answers for. The OT does have alot to say, stuff I didn't know exist in the those days. Our times aint different.

@ Bluelion...thanks for the correction re: why have you forsaken me. So I manage to get a picture that Jesus appeared as a man for us to see Him, hence He was here to preach the gospel and heal those that were sick. But you said God could not bear the state of Jesus' condition, now I am confuse. The three are in one, and I should think all work together. It's like saying one cannot do without the other. For example, if we place our hand on a hot stove, something in our brain will trigger to cause you to move that hand immediately to avoid severe burn. If you get what I am trying to say here, it's pretty much what I think regards Jesus. So God would already feel [or suffer] what Jesus is going through even though He is in physical form.

The way the Father suffers for the son is the same way Jesus suffers with us. Jesus lives in side us and the father lives in Jesus, now here is something cool, because Jesus lives in The Father and The Father lives in Jesus and Jesus also lives in us through Jesus The Father also lives in us. Now you know why Greater is the least in Heaven then all the prophets.

Now we go further and also receive the Holy Spirit, we have the 3 parts of God living in us which completes us to be the image of God, when we get our new bodies.

Think of that for a min, all of God living in us in part, and we question about what we can do, seem ridiculous no?

and I did not say the 3 are in one I said the 3 are one. The are all God. the seen and unseen.
 
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yungjah

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Welcome to Christian Forums yungjah.



Yeah, many reading plans run you all over the Bible each day instead of just reading straight thru, and can get a bit confusing and even annoying at times. I recommend just reading straight thru if you really intend to read the entire Bible.



There has been discussion, debate, cries of heresy, and much, much worse through the centuries with regard to how Jesus could be both man and God, so I trust you don't expect to resolve this issue on a message board without some mystery being left unresolved from a strictly philosophical perspective.

That said, the key passage regarding this is John 1:1-3. Before Jesus was born as a human, He pre-existed as the Word... God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Three personalities so unified in purpose and will as to be called One God. When the Word became flesh (John 1:14), the eternal Word emptied Himself of His Divine attributes, such as omnipresence, and took upon Himself a human nature (Philippians 2:5-11). The pre-existent eternal Word, who was, is, and always will be God, became a man who was born of a virgin and named Jesus. This man Jesus lived a perfect life, obedient to the Father in everything, and died on the cross for our sins. This Jesus, the man, is now exalted above everyone else, back to His position that He occupied from all eternity as the Word, except now He is human. Because Yahweh loves us, a man is now glorified as King of the universe.



All through the OT the name of God is Yahweh, or Jehovah, we're not sure how to pronounce it, and in most English translations this name of God is translated as "LORD" in all caps (as opposed to "Lord", which is usually a translation of the Hebrew word Adoni'). Yahweh means "I AM" in Hebrew, thus revealing much more of Jesus' meaning when He said to the Pharisees, "before Abraham was born, I AM." (John 8:58)



I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, could you explain a bit more?

I will certainly continue my reading plans.

Speaking of Jesus being both man and God, some also think that Jesus is neither male nor female.

John 1:1-3 is an important scripture to note. But some times we come across other stories and wonder if ABC happened at this time, how come XYZ happen, if you know what I am saying. It's like reading through the OT, and I'd wonder if all these people exist during the same time when these things happen. Like the wars that took place while taking the Israelites to the promise land [Canaan]. Reading the book Isaiah or Jeremiah for example, we'd wonder if they [Isaiah or Jeremiah] was alive during Moses or Saul's time. [Just an example, not accurate].

Some Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic words are not easy to pronounce unless you can speak the language. The OT contains many names for God apart from those you listed.

I could remember taking a religious course as part of my Computer Degree at an Adventist University, where I learned of names such as Elohim, El, Eloah, El-Elyon, El-Roi, El Shaddai, and the list goes on. All have different meanings.

As for the last statement you wanted me to clarify, I wanted to say that Jesus came on earth in physical form to minister the gospel, but I kinda wonder why if He is God the son, so is God the father, why did He have to pray to God? He is already Himself. Which therefore means He is praying to Himself? Am I right?
 
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yungjah

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The way the Father suffers for the son is the same way Jesus suffers with us. Jesus lives in side us and the father lives in Jesus, now here is something cool, because Jesus lives in The Father and The Father lives in Jesus and Jesus also lives in us through Jesus The Father also lives in us. Now you know why Greater is the least in Heaven then all the prophets.

Now we go further and also receive the Holy Spirit, we have the 3 parts of God living in us which completes us to be the image of God, when we get our new bodies.

Think of that for a min, all of God living in us in part, and we question about what we can do, seem ridiculous no?

and I did not say the 3 are in one I said the 3 are one. The are all God. the seen and unseen.

You couldn't have said it any better. I appreciate your input. But somehow I am again lost.

So it is incorrect to say 3 are in one.... but the correction is 3 are one. This got me trying to understand the difference. Let me give it a shot with an example.

3 in one would mean a single item that can do 3 things in one body. [Pretty much like a smart phone that can play music, take pictures and communicate.]

3 are one would mean ABC, but it is called alphabet. A for the word of God, B for the spirit of God and C for God is with us. All together makes us stronger to defend ourselves against false prophets, the anti-Christ, etc.

Correct?

If so, then I can say I am on the right path.
 
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Bluelion

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You couldn't have said it any better. I appreciate your input. But somehow I am again lost.

So it is incorrect to say 3 are in one.... but the correction is 3 are one. This got me trying to understand the difference. Let me give it a shot with an example.

3 in one would mean a single item that can do 3 things in one body. [Pretty much like a smart phone that can play music, take pictures and communicate.]

3 are one would mean ABC, but it is called alphabet. A for the word of God, B for the spirit of God and C for God is with us. All together makes us stronger to defend ourselves against false prophets, the anti-Christ, etc.

Correct?

If so, then I can say I am on the right path.

Good way to put it, but what concerns me is c God with us, c would be The Holy Spirit, God is with us in all 3 parts not just one.

We baptize In the Name of The Father, The son, and The Holy Spirit, 3 parts of God all with us, So you could go back and say 3 are in one, us, may be that is what God was explaining to you, but that does not seem right to me, something is off, because we do not and are not suppose to think of yourself as one, we are to expand to be one with God and all God's children through Jesus. Jesus talked about The True Vine, He is the Vine, and also he spoke of Being the Head and Us the Body. We get bog down when we look to individualism that is a mistake, i don't think everyone fits one idea, or that being unique is wrong. We are all Special but we are all the same as well.

Now that is some of God's Philosophy and fun to discuss.

You surprised me i did not expect you to see what was being said but the ABC thing i could not have come up with my self to explain it but it does perfectly. The Holy Spirit seems to be guiding you.:)
 
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food4thought

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I will certainly continue my reading plans.

Cool. Whatever works for you is best.

Speaking of Jesus being both man and God, some also think that Jesus is neither male nor female.

People think all kinds of things... the Bible always uses masculine pronouns when speaking of God. Yet Yahwey could very well be considered to have no sex biologically, since God is not a biological Being but a spiritual Being. Yet Jesus was most definitely born as a male, and He has been glorified back into fellowship in the Trinity, so I think it is best to honor what God communicated to us regarding Himself in the Bible and refer to God in the masculine.

John 1:1-3 is an important scripture to note. But some times we come across other stories and wonder if ABC happened at this time, how come XYZ happen, if you know what I am saying. It's like reading through the OT, and I'd wonder if all these people exist during the same time when these things happen. Like the wars that took place while taking the Israelites to the promise land [Canaan]. Reading the book Isaiah or Jeremiah for example, we'd wonder if they [Isaiah or Jeremiah] was alive during Moses or Saul's time. [Just an example, not accurate].

Everything recorded in the Bible has been recorded for a purpose, for our learning. The way the OT is compiled does make it difficult to determine what happened when, doesn't it? Generally the prophets will say what king or kings were ruling during the time they prophecied, so you can compare that with the history in 1-2 Kings and 1-2 Chronicles to figure out how to place them in the chronology.

Some Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic words are not easy to pronounce unless you can speak the language. The OT contains many names for God apart from those you listed.

I could remember taking a religious course as part of my Computer Degree at an Adventist University, where I learned of names such as Elohim, El, Eloah, El-Elyon, El-Roi, El Shaddai, and the list goes on. All have different meanings.

Even the Jewish rabbi's cannot agree on how to pronounce Yahweh/Jehovah today. The name Yahweh is important because it is not just a descriptive title of God, but the name He identified Himself with to Moses. But it is true that we can learn much about God just by looking at all the different names/titles attributed to Him in Scripture.

As for the last statement you wanted me to clarify, I wanted to say that Jesus came on earth in physical form to minister the gospel, but I kinda wonder why if He is God the son, so is God the father, why did He have to pray to God? He is already Himself. Which therefore means He is praying to Himself? Am I right?

The Father is not the same personality as the Son, and even before Jesus' incarnation the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed as three distinct persons unified as One God, and thus they communicated with one another some way. This is why that passage in Philippians 2 is so important theologically... it tells us that the Word "emptied Himself" of Divine powers when He became a man. When the Word was incarnated as the man Jesus, He truly was a man. He was not all knowing, nor all powerful, nor all present... He deliberately emptied Himself of those privileges for a time, that He might fully identify with us as human. Thus in His humanity, Jesus needed to pray to communicate with the Father and Holy Spirit even though He was in nature the eternal Word... everything Jesus did in life, He did as a man. He was truly a helpless infant, and the Bible testifies that as a human He grew up just like every other child, gaining understanding as He got older. Yet in some sense He never ceased being the eternal Word... not sure we can ever explain exactly how that worked out, but I don't think it is truly that hard to just accept as a truth we don't fully understand.

Many philosophers tried to define exactly how and in what way Jesus was man and yet God, but this was/is all truly human speculation. The Bible does not tell us how exactly Jesus' human nature interacted with His Divine nature, it simply tells us that He was both fully human and fully God. Philosophical speculation is interesting and all, but don't let it confuse the issue.

Hope this helps.
 
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KnowHisJoy77

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God bless you yungjah! Welcome to CF!

I am blessed by your post and praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you to all Truth in the Word.

I did the same as you by reading the whole Bible like a regular book when I came to the faith, 3x first years I had no idea of anything Bible and had to start from the beginning. At first I could not understand Trinity and thought was "3 gods". It was 1996..So exciting, wonderful, real food to our spirit and medicine for the soul and much more. Its living and precious promises.

Sorry to interrupt your thread!
 
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JM

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QUESTION 6. How many persons are there in the Godhead?
ANSWER: There are three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory.

Q. 1. Whence is it, that this article of our holy religion has been so much opposed by adversaries, in every period of the church?
A. The devil and his instruments have warmly opposed it because they know it is the primary object of our faith and worship; it not being enough for us to know what God is, as to his essential attributes, without knowing who he is, as to his personality, according as he has revealed himself in his word, to be Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, 1 John 2:23, -- "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father."

Q. 2. Is this doctrine of the Trinity, then; a fundamental article, upon the belief of which our salvation depends?
A. Beyond all doubt it is: because without the knowledge and belief of the Trinity of persons, we would remain ignorant of the love of the Father, the merit of the Son, and the sanctifying influences of the Holy Ghost, in the purchase and application of redemption; without which there could be no salvation, John 17:3, -- "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

Q. 3. Can the Trinity of persons be proved from the Old Testament?
A. Yes; not only from the history of man's creation, where God speaks of himself in the plural number, "Let us make man," Gen. 1:26; but likewise from such passages, as expressly restrict this plurality to three persons, such as, Psalm 33:6, -- "By the word of the Lord, or JEHOVAH, were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath, or spirit, of his mouth;" where there is mention made of JEHOVAH, the Word, and the Spirit, as concurring in the creation of all things: accordingly, we are told that all things were made by the Word, John 1:3, and that the Spirit garnished the heavens, Job 26:13. The same truth is also evident from Isa 63:7, 9, 10; where we read of the loving-kindness of JEHOVAH; Of the Angel of his presence saving them; and of their vexing his Holy Spirit. A plain discovery of a Trinity of persons.

Q. 4. What is the meaning of the word Trinity, so commonly used in expressing this doctrine?
A. It signifies the same with Tri-unity, or three in one; that is, three distinct persons, in one and the same individual or numerical[15] essence, 1 John 5:7.

Q. 5. Is not a Trinity of persons, in the divine Essence, an unsearchable mystery?
A. Yes; and so is every perfection of God, which infinitely transcends our thoughts, and finite capacities, Col. 2:2; Job 11:6, 7.

Q. 6. Is it not unreasonable to require a belief of what we cannot understand?
A. It is not at all unreasonable in matters that are entirely supernatural; but, on the contrary, it is the highest reason we should believe what God says of himself, and of the manner of his own subsistence, John 20:31:besides, it is the peculiar office of faith to subject our reason to divine revelation, Heb. 11:1.

Q. 7. How has God revealed this mystery in his word?
A. He has in it told us, that "there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one," 1 John 5:7. Or, as our Confession expresses it, "In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost," Matt. 3:16, 17 and 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14.

Q. 8. What is meant by the word Godhead?
A. The divine nature or essence; Rom. 1:20, compared with Gal. 4:8.

Q. 9. What is meant by a person in the Godhead?
A. A complete, intelligent, and individual subsistence, which is neither a part of, nor sustained by any other; but is distinguished by an incommunicable property in the same undivided essence.

Q. 10. Has each person then a distinct nature, or essence of his own?
A. No; but the same divine nature, or essence, is common to all the three glorious persons, 1 John 5:7, -- "These three are one;" not only united in will and affection, but in one and the same common nature, or essence: it being the transcendent and incommunicable property of the divine nature, to reside in more persons than one.

Q. 11. What was the heresy of the Sabellians, and Tritheists, in opposition to this fundamental doctrine of the Trinity?
A. The Sabellians maintained that there is but one person in the Trinity under three different names; the Tritheists, that the three persons are three Gods.

Q. 12. Is the word Person, as applied to this mystery, made use of in scripture?
A. Yes; for the Son is said to be the "express image of the Father's person," Heb. 1:3.

Q. 13. How do you prove that there are three persons in the Godhead?
A. From the institution of baptism, Matt. 28:19; from the apostolical blessing, 2 Cor. 13:14; from John's salutation to the seven churches, Rev. 1:4, 5; and from the baptism of Christ, Matt. 3:16, 17; where the Father is manifested by a voice from heaven; the Son, by his bodily appearance on earth; and the Holy Ghost, by his lighting on him in the shape of a dove.

Q. 14. How is it farther evident that they are three distinct persons?
A. From the distinct capacities in which they are represented to act; for, in the work of redemption, we find in scripture, the Father "ordaining," the Son "purchasing," and the Holy Ghost "applying it," 1 Pet. 1:2.

Q. 15. How are the persons in the Godhead distinguished from each other?
A. By their personal properties, which are incommunicable to each other.

Q. 16. What is the personal property of the Father?
A. To beget the Son, and that from all eternity, Psalm 2:7.

Q. 17. What is the personal property of the Son?
A. To be eternally begotten of the Father, John 1:14, -- "We beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father."

Q. 18. What is the personal property of the Holy Ghost?
A. To proceed eternally from the Father and the Son, John 15:26 -- "When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

Q. 19. How does it appear that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son, as well as from the Father, when it is not expressly affirmed that he does so, in the above text?
A. Because he is called "the Spirit of the Son," Gal. 4:6 -- "the Spirit of Christ," Rom. 8:9; the Spirit is said to receive all things from Christ, John 16:14, 15; to be sent by him, John 15:26; and the Father is said to send him in Christ's name, John 14:26; from all which, it may be safely gathered, that he proceeds from the Son, as well as from the Father.

Q. 20. What is the difference between a personal and an essential property?
A. A personal property is peculiar to one of the persons only, but an essential property is common to them all.

Q. 21. Why are the personal properties called incommunicable?
A. Because each of them is so proper to one of the persons in the Trinity, that it cannot be affirmed of any of the other two.

Q. 22. Is it the divine essence that begets, is begotten, or proceeds?
A. No; for these are not essential, but personal acts. It is the Father who begets the Son; the Son who is begotten of the Father; and the Holy Ghost, who proceeds from both.

Q. 23. Are the terms necessary existence, supreme Deity, and the title of the only true God, essential or personal properties?
A. They are essential properties of the divine nature, and so common to all the persons of the adorable Trinity, who have all the same essence, wholly, equally, and eternally.

Q. 24. May the above terms be taken, or are they, by sound authors, taken in a sense that includes the personal property of the Father, and so not belonging to the Son and Holy Ghost?
A. They may not be, and never are, by sound authors, taken in that sense; for this would be to make the Son and Holy Ghost inferior to, and dependent upon, the Father, for being or existence, which is the very soul of Arianism.

Q. 25. Does not the Father, being called the first; the Son, the second; and the Holy Ghost, the third person in the Godhead, imply an inequality, or preference of one person to another?
A. These are only terms of mere order, and imply no preference or priority, either of nature, excellency, or duration; and therefore we find in scripture, that sometimes the Son is named before the Father, as in 2 Cor. 13:14, Gal. 1:1; and sometimes the Spirit before the Son, as in Rev. 1:4, 5.

Q. 26. Is not each of these glorious persons truly and properly God?
A. Each of these persons is God, in the true and proper sense of the word; though none of them can be called the Deity, exclusively of the rest, in regard the Deity, being the same with the divine nature, or essence, is common to them all.

Q. 27. But does not our Lord say, that the Father is the "only true God," John 17:3 -- "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God?"
A. Our Lord does not say, that the Father only, is the true God, exclusive of the other persons of the Trinity; but that He is the only true God (as each of the other persons is) in opposition to idols, or gods falsely so called.

Q. 28. How does it appear that the Father is God?
A. From his being expressly so called every where in scripture: particularly, 1 Cor. 8:6; and 15:24; Gal. 1:1, 3, &c.

Q. 29. Is it proper to say, that the Father is the fountain of the Deity?
A. The expression is dangerous, and now used by adversaries in an unsound sense, to exclude self-existence and independency from the Son and Holy Ghost, and therefore is to be avoided.

Q. 30. How does it appear from scripture, that Christ, the Son, is truly and properly the supreme God, equal with the Father?
A. From the same names, attributes, works, and worship being ascribed to him in scripture as are ascribed to the Father, and in as full and ample a sense.[16]

Q. 31. What are the names ascribed to Christ, that prove him to be equal with the Father?
A. He is expressly called "God," John 1:1 -- "the great God," Tit. 2:13 -- "the mighty God," Isa. 9:6 -- "the true God," 1 John 5:20 -- "the only wise God," Jude ver. 25; and JEHOVAH, which is a name never ascribed to any, in scripture, but the living and true God, Jer. 23:6; Psalm 83:18.

Q. 32. What are the divine attributes ascribed to Christ, that prove him to be the supreme God?
A. Eternity, in the strict and proper sense of the word, Mic. 5:2; unchangeableness, Heb. 13:8; omniscience, John 21:17; omnipotence, for he calls himself "the Almighty," Rev. 1:8; omnipresence; "Lo," says he, "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world," Matt. 28:20; and supremacy, Rom. 9:5.

Q. 33. What are those works which manifest Christ to be the true God?
A. The creating and preserving of all things, Col. 1:16, 17; the obtaining eternal redemption for us, Heb. 9:12:the working of miracles by his own power, Mark 5:41; the forgiving of sins, Mark 2:5; the raising of the dead at the last day, John 5:28, 29; and his judging the world, Rom. 14:10.

Q. 34. What is that worship ascribed to Christ which proves him to be the supreme God?
A. The same divine worship and adoration that is given to the Father, John 5:23; we are commanded to believe in him equally with the Father, John 14:1; and we are baptised in his name, as well as in the name of the Father, Matt. 28:19.

Q. 35. In what sense does Christ say, John 14:28 -- "My Father is greater than I?"
A. He does not speak in that place of his nature, as God, but of his office, as Mediator; in which respect he is the Father's servant, Isa. 42:1.

Q. 36. How do you prove the supreme Deity of the Holy Ghost?
A. From the same arguments, by which the Deity of the Son was proved; for, (1.) He is expressly called God, Acts 5:3, 4. (2.) Attributes, which are peculiar only to God, are ascribed to him, Heb. 9:14; 1 Cor. 2:10; Luke 2:26; Psalm 139:7. (3.) Works which can be accomplished by none but God, are performed by him, Psalm 33:6; Job 26:13; Luke 1:35; 2 Pet. 1:21; John 16:13; Rom. 15:16. (4.) The same divine worship is paid to him, as to the Father and the Son, Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14.

Q. 37. Could the Trinity of persons, in the unity of essence, have been discovered by the light of nature?
A. By no means: for then it would be no mystery, seeing divine mysteries are such secrets, as the wisdom of man could never have found out, Matt. 11:27; 1 Cor. 2:9, 10, 14.

Q. 38. Is it lawful to explain this mystery by natural similitudes?
A. No; for there is no similitude amongst all the creatures, that has the remotest resemblance to this adorable mystery of the three one God. By making similes or comparisons of this kind, men have become vain in their imaginations, and their foolish minds have been darkened, Rom. 1:21-26; and therefore, as this doctrine is entirely a matter of faith, it becomes us to adore it, without prying curiously into what is not revealed.

Q. 39. Does the asserting of three persons in the Godhead, with distinct personal properties, infer any separation, or division, in the divine essence?
A. No; for the persons in the Godhead are not separated, but distinguished from one another, by their personal properties. As the unity of the essence does not confound the persons, so neither does the distinction of persons imply any division of the essence, 1 John 5:7.
 
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JM

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Q. 40. Can any worship God aright, without the faith of this mystery of the Trinity?
A. No; "for he that cometh to God, must believe that he is," Heb. 11:6; namely, that he is God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Q. 41. How is our worship to be directed to this three-one God?
A. We are to worship the Father, in Christ the Son, by the Spirit; and thus, when we pray, we are to ask the Father, in the name of the Son, by the Holy Ghost, Eph. 2:18 and 5:20.

Q. 42. Will not this mystery be more fully known and displayed in heaven?
A. Yes; for, says Christ, "at that day ye shall know, that I am in my Father," John 14:20; See also 1 Cor. 13:12; 1 John 3:2.

Q. 43. What comfortable instruction may we learn from this doctrine of the Trinity?
A. That the gift of eternal life, in the promise and offer of the gospel, to sinners of mankind, is attested by the three famous witnesses in heaven, who are above all exception, 1 John 5:7, 11; and consequently, that a portion infinitely rich, is insured by the covenant of grace to all those who believe, when it makes over all the three persons to them, as their God, Jer. 31:33.

Q. 44. What is the duty of the judicatures of the church with reference to Arians, Socinians, and Deists, who deny this fundamental doctrine of the Trinity?
A. It is their duty after the first and second admonition, to reject them as heretics, Tit. 3:10.

[15] That is, particular.
[16] Larger Catechism, Q. 11.
 
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yungjah

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Good way to put it, but what concerns me is c God with us, c would be The Holy Spirit, God is with us in all 3 parts not just one.

We baptize In the Name of The Father, The son, and The Holy Spirit, 3 parts of God all with us, So you could go back and say 3 are in one, us, may be that is what God was explaining to you, but that does not seem right to me, something is off, because we do not and are not suppose to think of yourself as one, we are to expand to be one with God and all God's children through Jesus. Jesus talked about The True Vine, He is the Vine, and also he spoke of Being the Head and Us the Body. We get bog down when we look to individualism that is a mistake, i don't think everyone fits one idea, or that being unique is wrong. We are all Special but we are all the same as well.

Now that is some of God's Philosophy and fun to discuss.

You surprised me i did not expect you to see what was being said but the ABC thing i could not have come up with my self to explain it but it does perfectly. The Holy Spirit seems to be guiding you.:)

I believe I made an error for "C". But pretty much I interpreted the difference right, according to your feedback.

Thanks for the explanation.

I know right @ surprised. lol. I am growing slowly spiritually and I am having fun learning.
 
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yungjah

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Cool. Whatever works for you is best.



People think all kinds of things... the Bible always uses masculine pronouns when speaking of God. Yet Yahwey could very well be considered to have no sex biologically, since God is not a biological Being but a spiritual Being. Yet Jesus was most definitely born as a male, and He has been glorified back into fellowship in the Trinity, so I think it is best to honor what God communicated to us regarding Himself in the Bible and refer to God in the masculine.



Everything recorded in the Bible has been recorded for a purpose, for our learning. The way the OT is compiled does make it difficult to determine what happened when, doesn't it? Generally the prophets will say what king or kings were ruling during the time they prophecied, so you can compare that with the history in 1-2 Kings and 1-2 Chronicles to figure out how to place them in the chronology.



Even the Jewish rabbi's cannot agree on how to pronounce Yahweh/Jehovah today. The name Yahweh is important because it is not just a descriptive title of God, but the name He identified Himself with to Moses. But it is true that we can learn much about God just by looking at all the different names/titles attributed to Him in Scripture.



The Father is not the same personality as the Son, and even before Jesus' incarnation the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed as three distinct persons unified as One God, and thus they communicated with one another some way. This is why that passage in Philippians 2 is so important theologically... it tells us that the Word "emptied Himself" of Divine powers when He became a man. When the Word was incarnated as the man Jesus, He truly was a man. He was not all knowing, nor all powerful, nor all present... He deliberately emptied Himself of those privileges for a time, that He might fully identify with us as human. Thus in His humanity, Jesus needed to pray to communicate with the Father and Holy Spirit even though He was in nature the eternal Word... everything Jesus did in life, He did as a man. He was truly a helpless infant, and the Bible testifies that as a human He grew up just like every other child, gaining understanding as He got older. Yet in some sense He never ceased being the eternal Word... not sure we can ever explain exactly how that worked out, but I don't think it is truly that hard to just accept as a truth we don't fully understand.

Many philosophers tried to define exactly how and in what way Jesus was man and yet God, but this was/is all truly human speculation. The Bible does not tell us how exactly Jesus' human nature interacted with His Divine nature, it simply tells us that He was both fully human and fully God. Philosophical speculation is interesting and all, but don't let it confuse the issue.

Hope this helps.

You made few valid points, most of which I took note of.

And certainly philosophical speculation is interesting. So many interpretations or sources to confuse the masses, but it's for us to seek God's guidance.
 
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yungjah

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God bless you yungjah! Welcome to CF!

I am blessed by your post and praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you to all Truth in the Word.

I did the same as you by reading the whole Bible like a regular book when I came to the faith, 3x first years I had no idea of anything Bible and had to start from the beginning. At first I could not understand Trinity and thought was "3 gods". It was 1996..So exciting, wonderful, real food to our spirit and medicine for the soul and much more. Its living and precious promises.

Sorry to interrupt your thread!

You did not interrupt the thread and I appreciate the welcome. I believe that I will learn and grow spiritually and I have no regret joining this forum.

We are all here for a reason, and that's to help one another. I too may find myself explaining to someone who is lost in the near future.
 
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