Conflicting morals

LJSGM · Jul 12, 2009

One of the few reasons that we shouldn't submit to the government is if the government asks us to do something immoral, but I hardly see humanitarian efforts as immoral on the part of the government.

what a ridiculous argument!

That evil government for wanting to help it's citizens in a humanitarian way!

lol!

I'll tell you about an evil government.... where you can't vote and they kill you for being a christian. Then you can start crying... maybe...

mont974x4 · Jul 12, 2009

yes because theft and the ignoring of laws is always OK.

nice hyper emotionalism now I remember why I had you on ignore

LJSGM · Jul 12, 2009

mont974x4 said:
BTW, I'd say socialism and communisim has killed far more people than liberals care to admit or think about. Most likely more than capitalism.

I think it's more so dictatorships that kill more people then democracies.

Also, Many thousands of Amercians die every year of preventable diseases because of Capitalism over socialism in the healthcare system, does that count?

LJSGM · Jul 12, 2009

mont974x4 said:
yes because theft and the ignoring of laws is always OK.

Theft? are you speaking of having to pay your taxes???

God doesn't seem to see it as theft...

and which laws are they ignoring?

Is this all you have to complain about?

For real?

If you want to change something in the government, go and do it then. At least our government gives us that option to a degree.

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

miniverchivi said:
As for how the money was allocated, I read that from some early non-biblical authors of the time that I stumbled across online.

Again, could you please show me where the Bible says that they gave their money to the government to be redistributed?

In the verses you just showed, they didn't rely on the government to help the poor, but took it upon themselves.

It was mentioned in the writings of Dionysius who historians claimed lived/wrote about 150-200 years after the time of the gospels. Several other early authors also wrote about the system of Christian communalism.

I follow the Bible, not Dionysius or "other early authors".

The early church was not Communist, nor were they Socialists. They gave of their own free will out of an act of worship to God. They didn't sit around and complain because the government wasn't taking enough of their money to subsidize poor people's poverty.

They didn't say, "Ooh, those evil rich people should all be shot. All they want to do is starve children and old people and pollute the planet!"

To the contrary, wealth was seen as a blessing from God and one of the benefits of that blessing is that they were allowed to be a part of the work of God by giving that money away, not having it taken from them.

I have a friend who works for a tax firm who told me that some people who make 20mil+ a year get away with only paying 3% in taxes...but somehow they're just so broke, they can't help anyone.

Yep. There are people who know how to hold on to their money and who don't give to charity. That doesn't mean that capitalism is wrong.

I pay about 30% in taxes...then donate an addition grand to charity every year....so they have no excuse.

I wonder which is worse: a rich person who gives very little of his money to charity, or an average person who gives a lot of money to charity and then brags about it. Hey, I know! Let's go ask Jesus what He thinks.

Jesus, what do you think about a person who gives a lot of money to charity and then brags about how much better they are than people who don't give a lot of money to charity?

Jesus said:
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. - Matthew 6:1-4

Thanks, Jesus.

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

HighwayMan said:
Technically yes, but to do so without being hypocritical is hard and many fail at it. Capitalism most often leads to the rich taking advantage of the poor

How so?

Killing 10 people is better than killing a 100, but that still does not make killing good.

I disagree. Killing ten terrorists, for example, to stop them from killing 100 innocent women and children is a very good thing. There are times when killing is not only good, but is the appropriate response.

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

LJSGM said:
I don't think that being a christian and being zealous policitically go hand in hand.

I mean, sure, if it helps people by putting some effort into changing some law, then go ahead, but our zealousness should be focused on God's kingdom and spreading the gospel.

Why can't you be both?

If you really feel that way, then why is it so important to have an icon showing your political party next to your name?

Strange view of the government, do you happen to be an anarcist?

Anyone who doesn't believe you should be forced to give to charity is an anarchist?

Because God tells you to.

What verse?

He tells you to submit to the government

The key word here is submit, not trust.

for it is God's Servant to do you good.

So then, what should we do when the government doesn't do us good?

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

mont974x4 said:
You still haven't answered the other questions. What is rich?

It's all relative. the poorest person in our country is considered wealthy by some countries' standards.

What shold be the tax limit?

I'm for a flat tax. What percentage is up for debate, but there's no reason, in a country where we give lip service to the equality of all men, we should be taxing some more than others, just because they've achieved more.

How much should people be forced to give to charity?

As much as their conscience tells them to.

Why should we trust the givernment?

We shouldn't. Even the Founding Fathers, when they were laying down the framework for our government, recongnized that it is a necessary evil.

If our officials lived under the same laws we do, most of them would be in jail.

We are not to abdicate our responsibility to the government. We are to help the poor, not pass that buck.

I agree. Jesus gave the responsibility to help the poor directly to His followers, not to the government.

There is a difference between submission and trust. There is also a biblical basis for civil disobedience....ever hear of Daniel? Esther?

Agreed. I can't help but wonder when sit ins are going to make a come back. Glenn Beck has predicted that we'll start seeing sit ins in the next couple of months.

I'd love to see people surround the Capital and shut it down to make their voices heard by means of civil disobedience.

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

LJSGM said:
No, but there's also nothing wrong with them doing some good too.

There is if they're violating the law and Biblical principles to do so.

Those are in the OT???

And, what, the OT doesn't count?

The government is a state of order that benefits us while we are sinful man and it is ordained by God, and is God's servent to do you good, do you have a problem with that, cause it smells of rebellion in my opinion.

What happens when the government does bad? If the government is God's agent and it tells us that we have a God endowed right to speak, to protest, to rebel, if necessary, then shouldn't we listen to them?

And God commanding us to submit to the worldly government was in the time of Caesar's government, I think ours is a step up from theirs, and you should be more greatful.

I agree. We should be grateful that we do not live in Ceasar's time. However, the Bible never tells us that we're to submit to a government that orders us to do that which is illegal or Ungodly.

Let me ask you this: when a government breaks it's own laws, which one do you submit to? The rule of law, or the government leaders who are breaking the law?

The OT speaks of Israel and Judah... are you a part of Israel or Judah?

The OT also gives us principles that transcend nationality. This is one of them.

One of the few reasons that we shouldn't submit to the government is if the government asks us to do something immoral, but I hardly see humanitarian efforts as immoral on the part of the government.

What if the way they go about "humanitarian efforts" is illegal and immoral?

Also, Many thousands of Amercians die every year of preventable diseases because of Capitalism over socialism in the healthcare system, does that count?

And what about people who die because socialized healthcare denies them the treatment they need? Just heard an interview yesterday where they discussed the fact that so many people are coming here from Canada and Europe because they can't get treatment there. One of the statistics they pointed out is that in Great Britain, cancer survival rates are much lower because they have to wait so long for treatment and, even then, do not get the agressive treatment they need.

I find it interesting that you believe we should have the government run healthcare because the poor can't afford healthcare, when it was the government that made healthcare so expensive in the first place.

Theft? are you speaking of having to pay your taxes???

God doesn't seem to see it as theft...

No, He doesn't see it as theft, but He does command magistrates (or, in our culture, the government) to tax fairly and not to levy burdensome taxes.

and which laws are they ignoring?

Tenth Amendment, Second Amendment, First Amendment, etc.

If you want to change something in the government, go and do it then. At least our government gives us that option to a degree.

Wait a second, are you now saying that it's OK to disagree with the government and work to change the government?

HighwayMan · Jul 13, 2009

Bro_Sam said:
How so?

I disagree. Killing ten terrorists, for example, to stop them from killing 100 innocent women and children is a very good thing. There are times when killing is not only good, but is the appropriate response.

ok....so in this scenario the people that capitalism "kills" - the poor, are equated to evil terrorists who need to die?

I think I'm going to slowly back away from this discussion.

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

HighwayMan said:
ok....so in this scenario the people that capitalism "kills" - the poor, are equated to evil terrorists who need to die?

Yeah, that's exactly what I said: poor people are just like terrorists.

HighwayMan · Jul 13, 2009

Bro_Sam said:
Yeah, that's exactly what I said: poor people are just like terrorists.

Not sure what else you're going with this terrorist thing, because my example clearly meant that just because capitalism may cause less problems than what we have seen Communism do does not make it good.

And here's what the pope has to say on the issue: Pope blasts capitalism ahead of G-8 meeting - CNN.com

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

HighwayMan said:
And here's what the pope has to say on the issue: Pope blasts capitalism ahead of G-8 meeting - CNN.com

Don't care. I'm not Catholic so I really don't give a rip what the pope says.

DarkCoffeeJazz · Jul 13, 2009

You should. I should think that most people get their impressions of xtianity from Catholicism. You should be greatly concerned.

ThatRobGuy · Jul 13, 2009

Bro_Sam said:
Again, could you please show me where the Bible says that they gave their money to the government to be redistributed?

In the verses you just showed, they didn't rely on the government to help the poor, but took it upon themselves.

I follow the Bible, not Dionysius or "other early authors".

The early church was not Communist, nor were they Socialists. They gave of their own free will out of an act of worship to God. They didn't sit around and complain because the government wasn't taking enough of their money to subsidize poor people's poverty.

They didn't say, "Ooh, those evil rich people should all be shot. All they want to do is starve children and old people and pollute the planet!"

To the contrary, wealth was seen as a blessing from God and one of the benefits of that blessing is that they were allowed to be a part of the work of God by giving that money away, not having it taken from them.

Yep. There are people who know how to hold on to their money and who don't give to charity. That doesn't mean that capitalism is wrong.

I wonder which is worse: a rich person who gives very little of his money to charity, or an average person who gives a lot of money to charity and then brags about it. Hey, I know! Let's go ask Jesus what He thinks.

Jesus, what do you think about a person who gives a lot of money to charity and then brags about how much better they are than people who don't give a lot of money to charity?

Thanks, Jesus.

We know from other writings that the church/clergy of the day acted as the government in many aspects.

As far as being charitable and giving on your own accord, no, it's not entirely free will. Especially when the people who do it are under the impression that if they don't make their best effort to be Christ-like, they'll burn for an eternity.

Bible said:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

...sounds like being rich isn't as big of a blessing as you're saying it is...at least not in the long term.

While the act of being rich and not giving alone doesn't shoot down capitalism, the ideals of capitalism indirectly foster greed. When your entire system is built around money-based standards and contentment, it causes people to work harder for money than they would work for something that didn't involve getting paid.

If our society was such that everyone got paid the same regardless of position, the people who put forth the effort are truly doing so because of pride in their own work, in our system, we do it for the big raise/promotion/bonus...

As far as not caring about other early writers, you do understand that there's other history outside of what's in the bible, right?

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

DarkCoffeeJazz said:
You should. I should think that most people get their impressions of xtianity from Catholicism. You should be greatly concerned.

Nope. Not even a little bit.

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

miniverchivi said:
As far as being charitable and giving on your own accord, no, it's not entirely free will. Especially when the people who do it are under the impression that if they don't make their best effort to be Christ-like, they'll burn for an eternity.

Then they need to talk to a Christian and learn what Christianity teaches.

...sounds like being rich isn't as big of a blessing as you're saying it is...at least not in the long term.

No, it's still a blessing.

While the act of being rich and not giving alone doesn't shoot down capitalism, the ideals of capitalism indirectly foster greed.

How?

When your entire system is built around money-based standards and contentment, it causes people to work harder for money than they would work for something that didn't involve getting paid.

...and, in related news, night is dark and water is wet.

If our society was such that everyone got paid the same regardless of position, the people who put forth the effort are truly doing so because of pride in their own work, in our system, we do it for the big raise/promotion/bonus...

And they'll also do a crappy job.

That would also foster an underground, black market economy.

As far as not caring about other early writers, you do understand that there's other history outside of what's in the bible, right?

I sure do. In fact, I teach our church's church history classes. But the fact remains that while those writings are instructive, they're not where we get our doctrine from.

DarkCoffeeJazz · Jul 13, 2009

Yes but the bible is also quite clear you are to preach the truth, no? When it is Catholicism, a sect of xtianity, doing the misleading, one would think you would want to correct that.

Bro_Sam · Jul 13, 2009

DarkCoffeeJazz said:
Yes but the bible is also quite clear you are to preach the truth, no?

It says that we're to preach the Gospel and I do.

When it is Catholicism, a sect of xtianity, doing the misleading, one would think you would want to correct that.

Believe me, I am a consistent and very vocal criticism of Catholicism's doctrines.

However, the pope wasn't speaking about doctrine. He was making a political statement. He's welcome to his opinion.

DarkCoffeeJazz · Jul 13, 2009

Bro_Sam said:
It says that we're to preach the Gospel and I do.

Believe me, I am a consistent and very vocal criticism of Catholicism's doctrines.

However, the pope wasn't speaking about doctrine. He was making a political statement. He's welcome to his opinion.

Yes, but my earlier point was that many non-xtians view Catholicism as a direct representation of what xtianity is all about.

Conflicting morals

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