• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Xen_Antares

Senior Member
Dec 30, 2003
953
78
47
✟23,990.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Real Corona said:
No I'm sorry, but even Abe Lincoln himself said that if slavery would save the Union he would have kept it in place. He was concerned with only one thing, keeping the Union together and not having it go all Yugoslavian on us.

Did the south believe this? Nope. In fact Lincoln wasnt even on the balots in the southern states, they feared he was going to destroy the institution they held so dear. That is why the south waited til they knew Lincoln won the presidency before they seceded.

Lets look at the Secession ordinace of South Carolina shall we.

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.


For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the *forms* [emphasis in the original] of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.


Now lets look at Texas

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?



It must be hard being a revisionist with such damning evidence mounted against you. I suggest before you say the War had nothing to do with slavery you read the secession ordinances of the seperate Confederate States, slavery is a huge factor in them, and is mentioned more times than states rights.

I like to toot my horn when it comes to history, which is where I am at my best. I love it, I love to read it, write about it, I even participate in Alternate History discussions where I read and write about how the world would look if another path was taken, American History is my specialty, which the Civil War falls under.
 
Upvote 0

Lillithspeak

The Umbrella
Aug 26, 2003
1,532
120
78
Vermont
✟17,286.00
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
IrishJohan said:
I don't force the Confederate flag on anyone. Tell me, given the Highland Clearances, the Irish Famine, etc., how can you not hold similiar views of the Union Jack? Have any problems being called British?
I certainly wouldn't want it flown in my hometown. I don't call myself British either.
 
Upvote 0

Lillithspeak

The Umbrella
Aug 26, 2003
1,532
120
78
Vermont
✟17,286.00
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Dishonesty? Who said anything about being dishonest. I said don't fly the flag from the Statehouse. Where do you get dishonesty? How is it insulting "millions" of soldiers? Did the south have "millions" of soldiers?
 
Upvote 0

fromtheright

Active Member
Jan 4, 2003
37
2
68
Huntsville, AL
Visit site
✟22,667.00
Faith
Protestant
When the issue of the Confederate flag atop Alabama's state capitol came up, my first view was to oppose pulling it down as part of our history but my wife made a point which convinced me otherwise: blacks in Alabama are citizens too and the flag is the symbol of a period and a "nation" in which their ancestors were enslaved, whether it directly symbolizes slavery or not, or whether the Civil War was fought over slavery or not. When I add to that that the flag was hoisted in the midst of the depths of battles over segregation (yes, I understand the Constitutional issues involved in Brown v. Board, as to states' rights) is further argument against its being there. South Carolina and Georgia can wrestle this issue for themselves, but this is one white Alabamian who is proud that the Stars and Bars came down, and that the State Capitol became the Capitol for all of Alabama.
 
Reactions: praying
Upvote 0
Y

yes2truth

Guest
Hi there from the UK.

I have always been interested in history and I believe the Bible is the most underated history book there is.

I believe your Ku Klux Klan have always quoted Genesis 9:25-27 as the excuse for their wickednesses towards the black people of your country.

Now I believe these scriptures do tell of a curse on the black people descended from Canaan and had the Israelites obeyed God there would never have been any slaves at all as their forefathers would have been wiped out.

As Jesus walked this earth He told slaves to be good slaves and slave masters to be good slave masters i.e. slaves to be hard working and masters to be just and kind in their treatment of them. How does this sit with those who in real terms were and are just do-gooding self-righteous liberal reformers.

We had them here in the UK too during Victorian times, Gladstone and all the rest of them. Our country once strong and world powerfull has gone down the tubes ever since. Now we're a bankcrupt welfare state nation.
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat

Nowhere in that verse does it mention black people, it merely says Cannan, so how do we make the leap from there to it is the black people that should be enslaved?
 
Upvote 0

TheRealityOfMan

Regular Member
Jan 9, 2004
610
19
UK
✟858.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
UK-Conservative
IrishJohan said:
I don't force the Confederate flag on anyone. Tell me, given the Highland Clearances, the Irish Famine, etc., how can you not hold similiar views of the Union Jack? Have any problems being called British?


I have some issues with my national flag (Union Jack). I don't necessarily think it is racist, but I use it very carefully. Many different ethnic groups feel they can enjoy the British flag, so that is ok I suppose. I often feel though that the flag can be provokative in a bad way. What I find even more sensitive though is the English flag - the flag of St. George. This is can often be associated with racism and white supremacy even (it actually reminds me of Ku Klux Klan gear). It all depends on the spirit in which it is flown I guess. English nationalism is fine and mostly harmless. In fact it is a refreshing break from British unionism and it gives us English romantic visions of maids cycling to choir practice on foggy afternoons and warm beer. Increasingly, English Brits prefer this flag to the Union Jack. I do worry though about some elements of English nationalism. There IS some racism there, but then that's just me being snobbish and looking down at the working class -oops I meant to say football hooligans and The Sun readers. Oh, and Daily Mail readers too of course.

Northern Ireland is yet another case. As a British person I am offended by the provokative use of the British flag there but I am even more fearful of the red hand of Ulster, which resembles KKK gear even more. It is just so different over there to England where if you fly a flag, you are considered a bit eccentric. I know one area in Belfast where you get a knock at the door by the 'community leader' if you are not proudly flying the Union Jack outside your house... and woe betide you if it is upside down!
 
Upvote 0

Key Of David

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2003
2,115
58
53
Lexington, SC
Visit site
✟17,564.00
Faith
Christian
mhatten said:
Nowhere in that verse does it mention black people, it merely says Cannan, so how do we make the leap from there to it is the black people that should be enslaved?
The Canaanites weren't black....that is a perversion of the truth. People didn't understand scripture and began preaching that Ham saw his father "naked" and POOF his children were black and cursed. Does this not ring just a little silly even for a child? What was the meaning of it? I'll tell ya. Ham slept with his mother (going in backwards which is perversion, to "cover" his "father's nakedness"). THIS is why their father was SO upset and cursed his own son. But Canaan is not the anscestor of Africa. The Canaanites inhabited the middle east of the time...not Africa. Blacks were never "cursed" people.
 
Upvote 0

tulc

loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!
May 18, 2002
49,401
18,804
69
✟279,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are you suggesting because you ended slavery in England, it "went down the tubes"?
tulc(hoping he just misunderstood)
 
Upvote 0

Key Of David

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2003
2,115
58
53
Lexington, SC
Visit site
✟17,564.00
Faith
Christian
Although I do disagree that slavery should have been looked at as "ok" in the new lands we now inhabit as the British peoples and especially with that scripture being some "proof" that blacks are meant somehow "cursed to bondage". I DO however find it ironic that most public schools will not teach or stress how important the civil war was to the rest of the world. The UK sided with the South and indeed almost got involved in this war as well. The prejudice we face as Southern Americans is...if you're from the South....you're ignorant and could never have been very European. Oh? Where did we get all of our goods and do our trading? It wasn't with the North....which was the reason for the war. You can't have industry....if you don't have a buyer.
 
Upvote 0

Key Of David

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2003
2,115
58
53
Lexington, SC
Visit site
✟17,564.00
Faith
Christian
Yea well...that's probably where we got our "right to bear arms" clause. Let someone come to my house with violence on his mind.
 
Upvote 0

praying

Snazzy Title Goes Here
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2004
32,648
1,608
68
New Jersey
✟108,540.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat



 
Upvote 0

jj3pa

Active Member
Jan 27, 2004
28
2
Philadelphia, PA
✟15,458.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
yes2truth said:
Cush means black. Cush like Canaan was a descendant of Ham who was brown. Cush was the forefather of the Indian peoples.
According to Gen 10: ..

Cush was the father [4] of Nimrod, who grew to be a mighty warrior on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD ; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD ." 10 The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh, in [5] Shinar. [6] 11 From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, [7] Calah 12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city.

This would make Cush be a Semite ... and live not far from where Abraham started out.

From Smith's Bible dictionary :

Cush,
the name of a son of Ham, apparently the eldest, and of a territory or territories occupied by his descendants. The Cu*****s appear to have spread along tracts extending from the higher Nile to the Euphrates and Tigris. History affords many traces of this relation of Babylonia, Arabia and Ethiopia.

.. and the other entry ...

Cush -
(black ), a Benjamite mentioned only in the title to (Psalms 7:1) He was probably a follower of Saul, the head of his tribe. (B.C. 1061).


I'm curious if that means that Saul had a black man as follower and he was in the one of the tribes of Israel ???

I guess this means every one named Elijah Wood is actually made of wood ?
 
Upvote 0