Concubines

[SullivanZ]

Hi,

I find it strange how some Christians are very quick to jump on the bandwagon against sexual sins (or what they deem to be sexual sins, anyway) when the Bible is so accepting of things which we would, in our modern society, be so quick to decry. For instance, concubines. Christians today are so quick to rise up and condemn the man (or woman) who has had sex outside of marriage, who lives together with his future spouse, the person who looks at pornography, yet we see in the Bible - the holy and infallible Word of God - that it is was perfectly acceptable to have concubines. God was in no way opposed to this practice, despite our moral predilections, so why are Christians so quick to rise up and condemn the man who does not live up to their so-called ideals?

 

[solarwave]

Because people arn't taught things like this in church and so most don't consider it.

I don't know if polygamy and concubinage are necessarily immoral. According to the mighty wikipedia concubinage tends to be due to not being able to marry because of differences in social class.... so it could be wrong for that reason.

 

[dayhiker]

After years of being a Christian and accepting the sexual mores I was taught at church, I finally studied the Bible and sexuality for myself. It was an eye opener for sure.

M reading of ancient history had our negative view of sexuality coming from the Stoics and Greek Philosophers more than our Jewish tradition. I remember reading Heb.11, the hall of fame for the OT men and women of faith. I starting to notice what I knew about each of their sex lives and marriages as recorded in the OT. Almost half of these men and women of faith that are set up as our example had sex lives that would get them kicked out of every church I'd ever belonged to.

 

[Tim Myers]

"Hey, Ralphie, boy.....Va-Va-Va-Voom!!"........

 

[wannabeadesigirl]

After years of being a Christian and accepting the sexual mores I was taught at church, I finally studied the Bible and sexuality for myself. It was an eye opener for sure.

M reading of ancient history had our negative view of sexuality coming from the Stoics and Greek Philosophers more than our Jewish tradition. I remember reading Heb.11, the hall of fame for the OT men and women of faith. I starting to notice what I knew about each of their sex lives and marriages as recorded in the OT. Almost half of these men and women of faith that are set up as our example had sex lives that would get them kicked out of every church I'd ever belonged to.

Could the arguement be made that those times were before Christ, and as such they didn't have the holy spirit. So they naturally caved to instinctual behaviors unsurpressed by the spirit of God...I agree with you, I'm just playing devils advocate to keep the discussion going.

 

[rgleason426]

God in now way, shape or form allows or finds sexual acts such as fornication, cohabitation, pornography or anything of the sort morally acceptable anywhere in the Bible. Since nobody included a quotation, there can't really be a defense of it. But remember, when coming to Bible interpreting, move from the more explicit admonitions to the less.

St. Paul makes explicit admonitions in Corinthians and I believe in Hebrews as well. Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up.

God Bless.

 

[SullivanZ]

God in now way, shape or form allows or finds sexual acts such as fornication, cohabitation, pornography or anything of the sort morally acceptable anywhere in the Bible. Since nobody included a quotation, there can't really be a defense of it. But remember, when coming to Bible interpreting, move from the more explicit admonitions to the less.

St. Paul makes explicit admonitions in Corinthians and I believe in Hebrews as well. Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up.

God Bless.

God allowed (or even sanctioned) men to have multiple wives, Moses commanded men to take sex slaves as spoils of war, and there are other examples in the Bible replete with examples that condone such behaviour.

It wasn't called "fornication", "adultery" or "cohabitation" back then, but the fact remains that men were taking sex slaves (see the book of Numbers for example), and men were being married to (or not, as is the case with concubines) multiple women and God seemed absolutely fine with it.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

It might be worth pointing out statements such as that made by Jesus concerning divorce, that divorce was permitted due to weakness; but it is not God's way (and I would further point out that Jesus admonition against divorce must be understood contextually and culturally).

We might also do well to remember St. Paul's words that "all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable".

I would condemn concubinage and polygamy on a moral basis that most of the time it is about men being alpha dog and women being objects of desire and baby-makers. There's nothing righteous in that. In Christ we are invited into a full and equal partnership, male and female, to love and serve one another and dedicate our lives together to nurture and support a family and rear up children into healthy, mature, godly adults.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dayhiker]

wannabeadesigirl,
We all still today often live by instinctual behavior I believe. Yet God does speak to us. I think it was very similar in the OT. The Spirit of God clearly worked in peoples lives as recorded in the OT.
In my mind the Bible doesn't teach there is one way to have a marriage, one way to express sex, one way to have a culture. The Bible speaks that God's way is a way to love, a way to express justice, a way to worship God. So monogamy can be loving and yet we all know of people who weren't in a loving relationship. In the same way concubines could be part of a loving household or part of an abusive household.

 

[Spiritlight]

Hmmm a man with more than one... evidence of a bad memory. Getting nagged by more than one might just be its own reward, we need to say nothing.

Its ok girls JK

 

[SullivanZ]

Also, David - the one of whom God so highly thought - had multiple wives and God told him, through Nathan, that had that not been enough, He would have given him more! If that is not an endorsement of polygamy, I don't know what is!

Yet Christians today decry all things sexual, yet their own Bible disagrees with them! What folly.

 

[dayhiker]

rgleason,
You say we didn't use scripture then say your too lazy to quote scripture! What's up with that? Actually I did make reference to Heb.11.

Anyways, welcome to CF.

 

[solarwave]

I would condemn concubinage and polygamy on a moral basis that most of the time it is about men being alpha dog and women being objects of desire and baby-makers. There's nothing righteous in that. In Christ we are invited into a full and equal partnership, male and female, to love and serve one another and dedicate our lives together to nurture and support a family and rear up children into healthy, mature, godly adults.

-CryptoLutheran

What if both men and women could have many wives/husbands?

 

[dayhiker]

crypto, God commanded us to go forth and multiply .. so having children is immoral?

 

[dayhiker]

solarwave,
Good point. In a patriarchal society, it was men who ran things and so chose to have more wives. But I don't see the Bible commanding and saying a patriarchal society is the only way to organize society. So a society that has the sexes as equals women can have more than one husband. I don't see any problem with that.

 

[rgleason426]

God allowed (or even sanctioned) men to have multiple wives, Moses commanded men to take sex slaves as spoils of war, and there are other examples in the Bible replete with examples that condone such behaviour.

It wasn't called "fornication", "adultery" or "cohabitation" back then, but the fact remains that men were taking sex slaves (see the book of Numbers for example), and men were being married to (or not, as is the case with concubines) multiple women and God seemed absolutely fine with it.

First of all, just because God "allows" something to occur doesn't mean God likes it and it doesn't mean that it's morally permissible. God allows all sorts of evils to occur now and in the days of Abraham. So to say God allowed this or that in the Bible says nothing as to what God deems moral.

Will we be so arrogant as to not recall God's Creation before the fall of man? Before sin entered the world, God created man and woman, not man and women. "Therefore, man shall leave his mother and cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh." Not one man will cleave unto his wives, or women, or vice versa, but one man and one woman will cleave unto each other and become one flesh.

Anyways, I see that you're trying to justify some position of yours by ripping certain texts from the Old Testament. This is folly and dangerous. I pray for your soul to stop doing this. Look at St. Paul. He is explicit about what God wills to be sexually moral.


God Bless.

 

[rgleason426]

rgleason,
You say we didn't use scripture then say your too lazy to quote scripture! What's up with that? Actually I did make reference to Heb.11.

Anyways, welcome to CF.

Haha. I know! I'm such a terrible blogger. I tried to quickly find the passage I was looking for on an online Bible search, but it was terrible and didn't even get me there. I thought it was Cor. 6.

Anyways, thanks for the welcome. Hope you had a splendid Easter.

 

[DamianWarS]

I don't think the bible endorses polygamy I think biblical culture endorses polygamy. When defending marriage in Matthew 19 Jesus says:

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Jesus was commenting on divorce but answers in a way that can cover all of the marriage covenant. And he points to how it was in the beginning to say this is the model we should strive for and so that's what I point to for this discussion.

I'm aware people throw these arguments around saying Moses had multiple wives and if Moses was the author of Genesis then why would he discourage something he practices himself. Moses having multiple wives is arguable but regardless how many wives he had Jesus clearly refutes the value of marriage Moses sets in the law and goes back to the original value of marriage that apparently Moses also wrote.

I think the point is not that Moses wrote it but the "law" Moses decreed is man-designed and the image of marriage in the beginning is God-designed even though it was also written by Moses. This is the contrast Jesus is making and he clearly points to God's designed and so I point to it as well and polygamy doesn't seem to fit.

 

[SullivanZ]

First of all, just because God "allows" something to occur doesn't mean God likes it and it doesn't mean that it's morally permissible. God allows all sorts of evils to occur now and in the days of Abraham. So to say God allowed this or that in the Bible says nothing as to what God deems moral.

God gave no command that multiple wives are wrong.

Will we be so arrogant as to not recall God's Creation before the fall of man? Before sin entered the world, God created man and woman, not man and women. "Therefore, man shall leave his mother and cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh." Not one man will cleave unto his wives, or women, or vice versa, but one man and one woman will cleave unto each other and become one flesh.

These are the same Christians who say Adam, Eve and kids all committed incest together to progenate the human race. That defeats the idea of what was good in the beginning is true now. Humans were naked then too, I don't see too many Christians promoting nudism.

Anyways, I see that you're trying to justify some position of yours by ripping certain texts from the Old Testament. This is folly and dangerous. I pray for your soul to stop doing this. Look at St. Paul. He is explicit about what God wills to be sexually moral.


God Bless.

Paul cannot come along and rewrite the OT.

Second, he was in a culture that frowned upon multiple wives. The Romans disallowed having more than one wife. But not so in ancient Israel.

I'm not pro-polygamy, but the Bible is not against it. We have to be careful with not making the Bible say things it does not say.

People add in their interpretation based off of THEIR culture - regardless of there being no such command. Believe me, if it was a sin, God would have said so. He gave 613 commandments and not ONE condemns polygamy. Why is that?

Also, David - the one of whom God so highly thought - had multiple wives and God told him, through Nathan, that had that not been enough, He would have given him more! If that is not an endorsement of polygamy in the bible, I don't know what is!

 

[SullivanZ]

I don't think the bible endorses polygamy I think biblical culture endorses polygamy. When defending marriage in Matthew 19 Jesus says:

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Jesus was commenting on divorce but answers in a way that can cover all of the marriage covenant. And he points to how it was in the beginning to say this is the model we should strive for and so that's what I point to for this discussion.

I'm aware people throw these arguments around saying Moses had multiple wives and if Moses was the author of Genesis then why would he discourage something he practices himself. Moses having multiple wives is arguable but regardless how many wives he had Jesus clearly refutes the value of marriage Moses sets in the law and goes back to the original value of marriage that apparently Moses also wrote.

I think the point is not that Moses wrote it but the "law" Moses decreed is man-designed and the image of marriage in the beginning is God-designed even though it was also written by Moses. This is the contrast Jesus is making and he clearly points to God's designed and so I point to it as well and polygamy doesn't seem to fit.

You're adding in your own meaning there.

Jesus never said anything about polygamy. Why?

For one, it was not practiced in 1st century A.D. under the Roman Empire. The Jews obeyed the Romans and they forbade it.

Polygamy offends our 21st century minds. But that doesn't make it wrong in God's eyes. I personally find it to be wrong but I'm not going to put words in God's mouth He never said.