Concerning Hell

Ganymede · May 18, 2005

grateful heart said:
Yes this is correct, in the end God does say "depart from me" once judgment day comes. But we already seal our fate before we die,
Put it this way, we make the decision to go to Heaven or Hell, God just fulfills the law thats all.

Its like you kill someone the judge sentences you to death, who sends you to death>? You did the minute you killed someone, you made that decision and the consequence is Death, The judge just fulfilled the law as it is written

Can it really be true that for a God who is so powerful he can bring an entire universe into being just by wishing it to be so, that eternal suffering in hell is the best solution he can come up with? Ho couldn't figure out a better way to deal with sinners and non-believers?

Just think about the concept of eternal for a moment before answering that.

henrylee100 · May 18, 2005

I think we should go with hell being eternal separation from God, out of mercy He created a place where those who don't particularly enjoy being around Him can go and have things their own way. There's this joke that I think has a grain fo truth to it where a man dies and goes to hell, he was an atheist all his life so when he winds up in hell he's really stunned he asks the deamons if he can just walk around for a bit and have a look see they say go ahead, so he walks around and sees all these people being tormented indifferent ways, some are being fried some boiled etc, finally he comes to this place where there's a white sand beach, blue see a light breeze , a bar and people reclining in sheslongs, he walks over to the bar and asks if he can have a beer, they give him a beer, he says, is this hell the barman says yeah, sure, he says and what about that other palce where people are being rotmented is that hell too? the barman says, yeh, that place is hell too, the man says, but what's the difference, the barman says, that hell is for true believers.

so the idea is how can you possibly torment a person by keeping them separate from God if they never really cared about God in the first place?

On the other hand if God is jelous and hurts those who ignore him then hell certainly makes literal sense; those who ignored God all their lives end up being tortuned or tormented or both after death, God gets back at them. Yet if God is like that , t.e. succeptible to human emotions and passions (jeoulousy revenge etc) then that sort of confirms the Buddhist theory of the realm of Gods in which gods are just entities that are very powerful and live very long but are themselves tormented by overwhelming passions and feeling of self importance so that they're forever yearning for appreciation and worship.

Jeremiah31_3 · May 18, 2005

joemaloy said:
If I was God I would NOT create a species in knowing that I was going to have to burn 80% in Hell. And Im not just talking about the year 2005, Im talking about sence creation....around about 8 BILLION SOULS give or take. So in the Idea that I would NOT Create them for that reason alone does that make me BETTER than God. I would think not, so something else is going on in the sceem of things.

let's see, god created us to have a relationship with us, that was his reason. we made the choice not to have a relationship with him. It's the same as saying, I don't like this kid, so i'm not going to go visit him. so therefore, we're not allowed into heaven. so after death, that leaves us with one place to go, Your choice, not gods.
and you saying that you're not going to even give them the chance to make it into heaven is a better idea than not creating them at all, hmmm, sounds like a pretty raw deal there.

Jeremiah31_3 · May 18, 2005

Ganymede said:
Can it really be true that for a God who is so powerful he can bring an entire universe into being just by wishing it to be so, that eternal suffering in hell is the best solution he can come up with? Ho couldn't figure out a better way to deal with sinners and non-believers?

Just think about the concept of eternal for a moment before answering that.

It was the best solution. but it wasn't meant for us.

Jeremiah31_3 · May 18, 2005

JustJack! said:
Acknowledging that this would never happen in real life, your little story is flawed, like all the others. Jesus isn't asking us to accept Him. You are. You're saying we should take your word for it, that this is what God says. I'm sorry, but I don't deal with middlemen.

I'm not asking you to deal with me, if you don't want to deal with any middle man, then never come into forums and ask questions, i came in here and answered your question to what i believe is true, that is what you asked. I believe that yes, jesus is asking you to accept him, but hey, don't deal with me, i don't want to be your middle man, you go and read your bible, you find how jesus said you should get to heaven. get it straight from him, then you don't have to worry about no middle man.

JustJack! said:
Original sin, I was screwed from the begining. Again, I had no choice when Adam sinned, and I had no choice being born. Why would your God throw ppl is such a position, know full well the outcome? If commited by a human, we'ld call him sadistic.

what if when adam sinned god had of just killed him. you would have never had been born, you would never have had been *screwed* from the beginning, but you would also never had of existed and therefore had never would have had the chance to come to him and make it to heaven. you're choice. i like to believe that god didn't do that, coz there are people that will make it there, and he rejoices for each one that does.

JustJack! said:
Well, I don't know what bizzaro world you're living in, but on planet Earth, most anyone I know would shudder at the prospect of commanding the torture of a loved one for a certain crime, no matter how horrible. And, since God made the law, you'ld think he'ld be able to make exceptions. Jesus is an exception to the law. Why must Jesus be the only one?

Jesus wasn't an exception to the law. he just didn't break it. god probably does shudder at each one of us that goes to hell, that's why he sent jesus to die for us.

JustJack! said:
God doesn't have to do anything. He made the rules, He has broken the rules, and He can do it again. So why doesn't He? I think your God enjoys feeding the fire.

when has god broken the rules?

joemaloy · May 18, 2005

"when has god broken the rules?"

God broke the rules when he created us.
He knew that SOME would not make it, and should not have created us.
Not that I dont believe in him, but I do question his thinking.
Lets say that before you was created that God gave you a choice of NOT being created or take the CHANCE of going through life and going to hell. Only a crazy person would take that chance. And if one person goes to hell FOREVER then the price was to high to creat us.

The difference between you and a dog, your a god. If it doesnt sit are you going to put gas on it and burn it. I dont think so...

If you try to train it for 12 years and it still wont sit are you going to burn it. I dont think so.

Are you better than god, Maybe...but of course thats impossible

MuAndNu · May 18, 2005

grateful heart said:
Yes this is correct, in the end God does say "depart from me" once judgment day comes. But we already seal our fate before we die,
Put it this way, we make the decision to go to Heaven or Hell, God just fulfills the law thats all.

Its like you kill someone the judge sentences you to death, who sends you to death>? You did the minute you killed someone, you made that decision and the consequence is Death, The judge just fulfilled the law as it is written

Then perhaps that's what you need to say, rather than "you send yourself to Hell like it or not." I will guarantee you that if God is as Christians say (big, big if), then when the unbeliever sees the actual truth at judgment, he (the unbeliever) will not choose to go to Hell. If he winds up in Hell, it will be because somebody physically put him there. People do not send themselves to Hell, not even by Christian theology. By Christian theology, God sends people to Hell. Otherwise, God becomes nothing more than an impersonal, unreasoning force; no more capable of mercy than a cliff over whose edge the hiker inadventently steps.

Inside Edge · May 18, 2005

I dont know any real Christians who say that hell is not real, only Christians who take the Bible out of context would say this

Well I'm just glad you don't decide who are "real Christians."

And you should have rephrased that last bit. The truth is, "Only Christians who take the bible out of the context which you understand would say this."

£amb · May 18, 2005

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say "yes" or the power to say "no," the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.

In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people--only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. We have our catalog of sins. We have rape and incest and murder; and we have them all cataloged and classified--but there isn't one of them (or even put them all together in one big hunk) that comes close to the sin of keeping Jesus Christ out of your life. Did Jesus say, "I'm going to send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin because they rob banks"-- or, "because they believe not on me"?
It is folly to expect that you or I can trifle with the Lord Jesus and not have a penalty attached to it. What ridiculous thinking people have in this area! We expect penalties for doing much less. Life is just built that way.

You jump off a high building, the law of gravity will take care of you. You might say, "God is love," all the way down, but you're still going to get splattered when you hit the bottom! You break the law of gravity, and it breaks you! You may love your little child, but if he puts his finger up on that hot burner on the gas stove or the electric stove, he's going to get burned!

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

Ledifni · May 18, 2005

grateful heart said:
The grace of God is there if you dont accept its your decision not Gods to send you to Hell.

I've addressed this argument a thousand times and it never seems to do any good, so I won't go into it in depth. I'd just like to log my EXTREMELY HUGE objection to the above:

If I don't know that God exists to begin with -- which I don't -- then I can't accept the grace of God. That should be ridiculously obvious but for some reason it seems that it's my responsibility to guess right, as if I have any control over whether a random guess is correct.

Ledifni · May 18, 2005

£amb said:
Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

Is sin sentient? Did it create Hell? Does it make the rules? What is this "sin" that is able to successfully defy the desires of an all-powerful being and send us to Hell despite all His attempts to prevent it?

Spyr · May 18, 2005

I'm always amazed at how irrational people can be when posting on a topic like this. We choose to go to hell. God wants us to be with him. Blah Blah Blah. I'm suppose to simultaneously believe that:

God can do anything he wants
God wants above all else to have us accept his gift of salvation
He's done everything he could to make us know him
He can't make us believe in him without trespassing on our free will

Unbelievable. What is this 1984? Enough with the doublethink. If you really want to know about god I suggest looking at the angels. The angels weren't created with free will apparently. They do what god tells them too. Then how did Lucifer and the other angels fall? God must of not only known about but know about it even before he created Lucifer. Lucifer was create for the very purpose of his rebellion.

Then the whole thing that Hell was created for the angels and not for us. Again, what? Well if god doesn't want us to go to Hell then he could just create another place, was that not an option? Is that so inconceivable. But no man has to go to a place that wasn't originally created for them.

Am I not making any sense? Does no one else see this insanity?

ServantOrion · May 18, 2005

Ledifni said:
If I don't know that God exists to begin with -- which I don't -- then I can't accept the grace of God. That should be ridiculously obvious but for some reason it seems that it's my responsibility to guess right, as if I have any control over whether a random guess is correct.

I cannot prove to you that God exists, nor will I try. I have studied theology in some depth and the knowledge has never really helped me with faith. What I believe, I believe because of first hand experience on my part and second hand stories from people I trust.

About Hell, I am not sure. Really I am not, I have questioned about it for years and in the end you can't prove it one way or another. I think I lean towards it existing though. Hey we are all entitled to our opinions right?

Have a great day

Ledifni · May 18, 2005

ServantOrion said:
I cannot prove to you that God exists, nor will I try. I have studied theology in some depth and the knowledge has never really helped me with faith. What I believe, I believe because of first hand experience on my part and second hand stories from people I trust.

About Hell, I am not sure. Really I am not, I have questioned about it for years and in the end you can't prove it one way or another. I think I lean towards it existing though. Hey we are all entitled to our opinions right?

Have a great day

I'm not asking you to prove that God exists. If you think you have evidence, you're welcome to present it. But the fact is that evidence for God is extremely sketchy and I have never seen any that was not simply facts that don't falsify God. I have never seen a single bit of evidence that pointed at God specifically.

Now, if there were solid, undeniable evidence that God exists, then you might be able to claim it's my fault for ignoring it. But as it is, the claim that I choose to go to Hell is patently ridiculous. Not only is it ridiculous, it's offensive and it's akin a kid shooting you with a toy gun and yelling, "You're dead, because I have SUPER INVISIBLE ATOMIC BOMB BULLETS!!"

MuAndNu · May 18, 2005

£amb said:
God doesn't send anyone to Hell. You send yourself there. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say "yes" or the power to say "no," the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences.

In one sense you can say He doesn't send anybody to Hell, because across the road to Hell he has placed the cross of Christ. There are also the prayers of parents, pastors and Sunday school teachers, and all the other things that God brings into our lives to stop us on our selfish way and to bring us to the Savior. We have to go wandering on past it all and put ourselves in Hell.

Sometimes you hear people say, "God wouldn't send His children to Hell." God certainly doesn't send His children to Hell because when we're His children we're in the family of God. We're born again and part of our salvation includes deliverance from judgment. We're not all children of God except through faith in Christ Jesus.

Can a God of love send anyone to Hell? You might as well ask some other question to make just as much sense. Does God allow disease in the world? Does God allow jails and prisons for some people? Does God allow the electric chair sometimes? Does God allow sin to break homes and hearts? Does God allow war? All of these things are the consequences of sin entering into the world, and in some cases the direct result of man's rebellion, and the result of greed and pride and egotism and hunger for power that doesn't have any use for people--only the desire to get ahead.

This is the incredible fruit of sin. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. We have our catalog of sins. We have rape and incest and murder; and we have them all cataloged and classified--but there isn't one of them (or even put them all together in one big hunk) that comes close to the sin of keeping Jesus Christ out of your life. Did Jesus say, "I'm going to send the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin because they rob banks"-- or, "because they believe not on me"?
It is folly to expect that you or I can trifle with the Lord Jesus and not have a penalty attached to it. What ridiculous thinking people have in this area! We expect penalties for doing much less. Life is just built that way.

You jump off a high building, the law of gravity will take care of you. You might say, "God is love," all the way down, but you're still going to get splattered when you hit the bottom! You break the law of gravity, and it breaks you! You may love your little child, but if he puts his finger up on that hot burner on the gas stove or the electric stove, he's going to get burned!

Fire burns. Gravity kills. Water drowns. And you can say, "God is love, God is love, God is love," until you're blue in the face. But water will still drown you, fire will burn you, and gravity will kill you, and sin will damn you no matter how much you say about a loving God.

God just set up life that way. He set up the rules. He set up the laws by which we are to live. And if we break those laws, they break us, and we pay the consequences.

Can you show us why we should believe all that? Don't come back with something like, "It's the truth." Show us why and how it is the truth. Make it make sense. Keep in mind that those who think like me don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. Simply saying it is won't work. Quote it if you like, but be prepared to support what it says by reason and external evidence.

£amb · May 18, 2005

The thread asked a question...I answered. I'm not here to prove to you to believe or disbelieve. I already answered the question on how could God send people to hell. Always prove this or prove that. You claimed to already know this stuff....then there is no explaining on my part. But for me to "prove" anything...why?... you'll disbelieve anyway. How can you prove anything when someone already has their mind set not too. So what's the point. The answer was for anybody who wanted a point of view and it was given. Besides, how can you prove hell except by experience.

MuAndNu · May 18, 2005

£amb said:
The thread asked a question...I answered. I'm not here to prove to you to believe or disbelieve. I already answered the question on how could God send people to hell. Always prove this or prove that. You claimed to already know this stuff....then there is no explaining on my part. But for me to "prove" anything...why?... you'll disbelieve anyway. How can you prove anything when someone already has their mind set not too. So what's the point. The answer was for anybody who wanted a point of view and it was given.

"Proof" is probably not possible. It certainly isn't required. However, because of the kind of metaphysical claims made by Christianity, a high standard of evidence is in order. I don't see evidence of that quality being available.

I don't begrudge you your point of view, but this is a "Discussion and Debate" forum. You should expect to have your opinions challenged.

£amb said:
Besides, how can you prove hell except by experience.

I know you can't mean you've experienced Hell. What kind of experience are you talking about?

£amb · May 18, 2005

I apologize if I sounded alittle snippy. I know my beliefs will be challenged. The part about experiencing hell was just abit of humor. Well, maybe to me anyway...been rough day.

MuAndNu · May 18, 2005

£amb said:
I apologize if I sounded alittle snippy. I know my beliefs will be challenged. The part about experiencing hell was just abit of humor. Well, maybe to me anyway...been rough day.

No need to apologize. I've done far worse. Considering how "close to home" the kind of subjects discussed here are, it's amazing people remain as civil as they do sometimes.

Ganymede · May 18, 2005

Jeremiah31_3 said:
It was the best solution. but it wasn't meant for us.

Sorry - won't wash. God created hell and as an all knowing, all powerful God, he knew from the start that billions of human souls would end up there - suffering eternal torment for all time. Saying God didn't mean for us to end up there is like saying God made a mistake and I don't think that is something you would except. So my question remains....

Is the everlasting torture of sinners the best solution God could come up with? If it is, God is mind-bogglingly cruel. If not, the bible is wrong about hell, or God is a long way short of perfect.

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