Compass: Queers For Christ

[crashedman]

Hi,

I tuned into last night's episode of Compass about the controversy of G&L Christianity (though somewhat miffed that they put it on at a time when I'm usually on auto-pilot!)

However, going back to the subject at hand: I think that this was a very insightful and informative episode about a minority group that many church leaders over the years have slammed their doors to.

Whilst I am not gay, I can see the validity of the MCC and how it applies to people like myself as well. As a rule, the Judeo-Christian religions have done a good job in forcing the human species to hide and deny their sexuality and suppress such feelings.

There are both sides to this story: Christians who take the restrictions given to Levite priests to the letter and frown on homosexuality, whilst having no problem with wearing clothes made out of more than one fabric and eating shellfish and crustaceans. The other side is the Christians who believe in taking absolute responsibility for their sexuality and their sex lives and being careful as to whom they behave that way with, and likening the anti-gay gestapo in the churches to the Pharisees whom Jesus was upset with.

What made me indignant was the fact that they interviewed Dr. George Pell who came across as some self-made authoritarian, whilst at the same time this man has also been brought to trial with sexual abuse of children happening in his own church, and the fact that he had paid hush money to families whose kids had been abused by the clergy to keep the matter quiet.

I'm surprised Mel White was not featured in this episode, as he is one of the key figures in the Queer Christian movement (he has published an autobiography called 'Stranger At The Gate' dealing with his sexual problems).

There is only one other thing that I have to say on this episode: going by my own experiences, the gay and lesbian movement is not the only minority group to be persecuted and ostracised by Christians.



Crashedman

 

[Bevlina]

Missed it last night Dario. Darn it!

 

[artofwar]

It was interesting , a bit perverse but interesting, it goes to show how people can twist scripture or ignore it for their own gain

 

[DanielJamesSimon]

I saw that show. It was untruthful and biased, and sometimes it flatly lied.

The presenter claimed that de facto relationships, while once being
condemned by Christianity, are now accepted by the majority of Christians,
and that homosexuality was the "final taboo" in the church. This is simply
false. De facto relationships are still condemned by the majority of
Christians.

Similarly, the Baptist Minister who was interviewed claimed that since the
majority of Christians no longer publicly frown upon fornication (sex
before marriage), it should likewise accept homosexuality. He effectively
said "since this sin is accepted, we should accept this sin too".

He was shown saying this after the show mentioned a specific passage in
Leviticus, a book which clearly condemns homosexuality and fornication
alike.

This brief mention was the only mention in the entire show about what the
Bible - the central text around which Christianity is based - has to say
about homosexuality. The churches and gay Christians interviewed never
explained how the Bible does allow for homosexuality. They simply said
that they had found acceptance in a church that loves them for who they
are. The show claimed to "show how Gay Christians reconcile their belief
with their sexuality", yet didn't even attempt to do any such thing. No
reconciliation between the Christian faith and homosexuality was even
attempted - the show simply had Christians who had formed communities that
accepted a sin that is clearly not condoned in the Bible.

The show tried to suggest that the majority of Christians do accept
fornication and are moving toward accepting homosexuality, and this is
simply not true.

Homosexuals are not persecuted by the church, but homosexuality is not tolerated by it (well, the large majority anyway). The same is true of fornication, adultery, and so on.

The show was indeed perverse, but only in the fact that it showed half the side of a story without considering the other side - i.e. what the Bible does say about homosexuality. There is a reason that most Christians don't accept this practice, and that is that their whole faith is based on a Book which simply does not condone it.

The show was a gross misrepresentation of my Christian faith and the large, quiet majority of Christians.

 

[Racheal]

I saw and taped the show last night. It wasnt as good as i thought it would be... it didnt answer all my questions.

"The churches and gay Christians interviewed never explained how the Bible does allow for homosexuality. "

Does the Bible allow this??

I believe you are born "gay", it happens in the womb. But didnt God create our bodies to compliment each other, man and women, so we could create children together... does this mean that gay people gay arent to be sexual with each other as they cannot have children? Hmmm what about marriage?

 

[artofwar]

DanielJamesSimon vbmenu_register("postmenu_9160264", true); I totally agree with your post

 

[Sharky]

i didn't see it. KEEP MISSING IT!

I just lke to use what Jesus said. "Unless you repent you will likewise perish."

 

[Bevlina]

I saw that show. It was untruthful and biased, and sometimes it flatly lied.

The presenter claimed that de facto relationships, while once being
condemned by Christianity, are now accepted by the majority of Christians,
and that homosexuality was the "final taboo" in the church. This is simply
false. De facto relationships are still condemned by the majority of
Christians.

Similarly, the Baptist Minister who was interviewed claimed that since the
majority of Christians no longer publicly frown upon fornication (sex
before marriage), it should likewise accept homosexuality. He effectively
said "since this sin is accepted, we should accept this sin too".

He was shown saying this after the show mentioned a specific passage in
Leviticus, a book which clearly condemns homosexuality and fornication
alike.

This brief mention was the only mention in the entire show about what the
Bible - the central text around which Christianity is based - has to say
about homosexuality. The churches and gay Christians interviewed never
explained how the Bible does allow for homosexuality. They simply said
that they had found acceptance in a church that loves them for who they
are. The show claimed to "show how Gay Christians reconcile their belief
with their sexuality", yet didn't even attempt to do any such thing. No
reconciliation between the Christian faith and homosexuality was even
attempted - the show simply had Christians who had formed communities that
accepted a sin that is clearly not condoned in the Bible.

The show tried to suggest that the majority of Christians do accept
fornication and are moving toward accepting homosexuality, and this is
simply not true.

Homosexuals are not persecuted by the church, but homosexuality is not tolerated by it (well, the large majority anyway). The same is true of fornication, adultery, and so on.

The show was indeed perverse, but only in the fact that it showed half the side of a story without considering the other side - i.e. what the Bible does say about homosexuality. There is a reason that most Christians don't accept this practice, and that is that their whole faith is based on a Book which simply does not condone it.

The show was a gross misrepresentation of my Christian faith and the large, quiet majority of Christians.

Very, very interesting post Daniel. And a good one. It goes to show the lengths TV will go to having all churches accept practising homosexuals.
The Baptist minister was wrong in one thing...most true christians do not agree with sex before marriage.

Twisting the words of the Bible is a common thing these days.

 

[Bevlina]

I saw and taped the show last night. It wasnt as good as i thought it would be... it didnt answer all my questions.

"The churches and gay Christians interviewed never explained how the Bible does allow for homosexuality. "

Does the Bible allow this??

I believe you are born "gay", it happens in the womb. But didnt God create our bodies to compliment each other, man and women, so we could create children together... does this mean that gay people gay arent to be sexual with each other as they cannot have children? Hmmm what about marriage?

Many people are not born 'gay' Racheal. I know of one who had a bad marriage, and she is now living in a "gay" relationship with another woman. That's how decadent society is today.

 

[crashedman]

Many people are not born 'gay' Racheal. I know of one who had a bad marriage, and she is now living in a "gay" relationship with another woman. That's how decadent society is today.

Bev, is this woman more happier in this relationship than when she was in a bad marriage?

There are some people who are born like that - but it's not our business as humans to judge or spite them. I think society has come a long way in the last 30 years in showing more compassion and empowerment for these people.

Could you live with yourself if, as a Christian your words and attitude towards such people drove them to commit suicide because you made them feel unworthy?


Crahedman

 

[artofwar]

Just because someone is "happier" crash doesnt make it right, now we are talking in the Christian world here not the secular , we must love them yes but not condone what they do

 

[Kris_J]

I believe you are born "gay", it happens in the womb.

I doubt anyone is born being gay or being straight - to be gay or straight they would have to have a sexual identity & attraction - babies are not do not have a sexual identity or are sexually attracted to anything when they are born.

 

[DanielJamesSimon]

Does the Bible allow this??

Well, no, that was my point. The show didn't even try to prove that the Bible allows homosexuality, because it doesn't. The Christians didn't try to justify their beliefs from the Bible. They simply said that they felt accepted. As far as I'm concerned, if the Bible clearly condemns some act, then it doesn't matter how accepted you may be within a Christian community, that act is still wicked.

I believe you are born "gay", it happens in the womb. But didnt God create our bodies to compliment each other, man and women, so we could create children together... does this mean that gay people gay arent to be sexual with each other as they cannot have children? Hmmm what about marriage?

Well I don't believe you're born gay. I think I agree with Kris_J - you're not born gay or straight. Sexual attraction is learned as one grows.

Also, sex isn't just to create children, though that's a big part of it, and obviously gays can't have children. A thorough study of anatomy will reveal that not only can gays not produce children, they can't even have sex without committing devious, disgusting acts. The male and female bodies were designed to compliment each other, not just in reproduction, but in sex.

When it comes down to it, love is a choice. Gay people choose to be gay. True, they may have a number of influences that make it so they tend to choose to be attracted to members of the same sex, but it is still their choice.

 

[DanielJamesSimon]

Bev, is this woman more happier in this relationship than when she was in a bad marriage?

There are some people who are born like that - but it's not our business as humans to judge or spite them. I think society has come a long way in the last 30 years in showing more compassion and empowerment for these people.

artofwar said it perfectly - being happy doesn't make it right. She probably is much happier, but so are ex-Christian Buddhists. Doesn't make it right.

Again, gay people are not born gay. You are right, we should not judge or spite them. We can judge their actions - we are to be discerning. We should recognize that homosexuality is a sin. We should not judge a homosexuals salvation, though. Probably many if not all of the gay people shown on Compass will go to Heaven. I believe they have just been seriously misguided, and in this modern relativistic pluralistic tolerant society, and with that creeping into our churches, they have been lead to believe that being gay is normal and is okay.

We should never hate the sinner, but judging the actual action of homosexuality is not the same.

Could you live with yourself if, as a Christian your words and attitude towards such people drove them to commit suicide because you made them feel unworthy?

It'd be pretty depressing, but it's their self-pity or guilt that would do it. I wonder if Jesus' words ever made anyone feel unworthy and drove them to suicide. How many people would be depressed because they aren't living up to Jesus' standards?

We should not make anyone feel unworthy. Pointing out another person's sin does not have to make them feel unworthy. The feeling of worthlessness is often one's own fault, in many ways - as callous as that comment may seem.

 

[phoenix_kid82]

The only attitude we should display towards practicers of homosexuality, or any sin at that, is the attitude of love and compassion.

Jesus simplified so many things. He said "love God" and "love your neighbour". He shocked so many "righteous" people of His day by setting an example and being kind and loving towards the obvious "sinners" (of course as we all know, we are all sinners). He forgave sins and set people free.

So that is our command from our Lord: "love your neighbour". Full stop.

But if it's ever called upon and they want to know what God says about homosexuality, it's quite clear. We don't need to water anything down or say it in a nicer way. Homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin, and we're all guilty. There are just some sins that stick out like a sore thumb.

I believe the greater sins are in ones heart, if they truly want to please God, or if they seek the flesh or harbour resentment and bitterness (1 Peter something says he who hates another in his heart is guilty of murder....that sends shivers down my spine)

Okay, i'm probably going off onto one of my tangents, i should stop. I hope this was relevant though

Cheers

Wasabi_Cupcake

 

[Bevlina]

It is quite true that we should hate the sin and love the sinner. But, no way can I be bothered with homosexuals who walk down the street hugging and kissing. In fact, it makes me want to be quite sick to even see them. If they wanted to know about Jesus, and the Bible, I'd be the first to tell them.

 

[Workingmum]

But if it's ever called upon and they want to know what God says about homosexuality, it's quite clear. We don't need to water anything down or say it in a nicer way. Homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin, and we're all guilty. There are just some sins that stick out like a sore thumb.

Exactly. The Bible says that God created us male and female and blessed us to be fruitful and multiply - no where does it say in the Bible that God planned for homosexuality to be part of His creation. "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh". It doesn't say cleave to his male or female partner.

Another way to test if God blesses something is to look at its fruit - what is the cause of today's epidemic of AIDs, HIV, and other sexually transmitted diseases? Homosexually, promiscuity, pre-marital sex - "Live by the Spirit and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. .. Now the works of the flesh are obvs - fornication, impurity, licentiousness ...I am warning you as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" Galations 5:16-21.

As for being born that way - no way, like others have said before me, any homosexual leanings are a result of conditioning from society, or in direct rebellion to the Word of God. These poor people have been deceived by the devil into believing that what they are doing is okay!

 

[DanielJamesSimon]

It is quite true that we should hate the sin and love the sinner. But, no way can I be bothered with homosexuals who walk down the street hugging and kissing. In fact, it makes me want to be quite sick to even see them. If they wanted to know about Jesus, and the Bible, I'd be the first to tell them.

Agreed. I'm glad I'm not the only one sickened by this sight. But we must remember that this is no argument against gays themselves... as grossed out as I am by it, I can't use that as a reason why I don't like it. Fortunately, the Bible backs me up.

"Live by the Spirit and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. .. Now the works of the flesh are obvs - fornication, impurity, licentiousness ...I am warning you as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" Galations 5:16-21.

Good whole post. I'd like to add to this bit - 1 Timothy 1:8-11:"But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

And also - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[phoenix_kid82]

And also - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Note that this scripture refers to a variety of sin, and does not express any particular sin to be worse than others.

 

[phoenix_kid82]

It is quite true that we should hate the sin and love the sinner. But, no way can I be bothered with homosexuals who walk down the street hugging and kissing. In fact, it makes me want to be quite sick to even see them. If they wanted to know about Jesus, and the Bible, I'd be the first to tell them.

So if this is the disgust you feel about this sin, could U imagine how God would feel? And i believe He is disgusted with ALL sin. Not just homosexual fornication, but a guy and a girl fornicating would be just as disgusting to Him, as would dishonesty, stealing, envy, lack of self control...

I think it's a bit different for me. I definately recognise this as sin, but I live in the inner city of Sydney, i went to school in Newtown, a hub of all kinds of colourful people. I went to school with young people who went through "gay" or "confused" phases and identities. To this day, i am still friends with people from my past who are gay. So i guess i'm not as fazed by seeing this type of fornication.

One particular lesbian friend knows i'm Christian. And i'm trying to be the best ambassador for Christ as i can. I love her where she's at, we talk and laugh and hang out as friends do. But if i was to reject her because of her sin or wherever she's at or the fact she doesn't understand what she's doing as wrong, i would be a hypocrite, because i know i sin and don't even know it half the time.

I just want to love people like Jesus did. He loved prostitutes and tax collectors, He forgave sins and set people free. Whether or not she's asking what Christianity says about it (and i hope she does some day (soon)), i'm commanded to demonstrate love. The love that Jesus had (and has) for people had them crying and kissing his feet and pouring expensive oil on them. Love alone.

People who identify as gay or lesbian are very confused people. Alot of them don't understand what they're doing is wrong, and they feel it's who they are, it becomes their identity. We should recognise their need, and have compassion more than anything.

Wasabi_Cupcake