Community of Christ (former RLDS Church)

[Esdra]

Hi

what do you think of the Community of Christ (former reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)?

Are they orthodox in Theology? Because I've heard that their pastors are trained in orthodox Bible Colleges (I believe it was a College of the United Methodist Church (?))

Esdra

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

Are they still Mormons? I haven't heard of that branch before.

 

[Esdra]

Are they still Mormons? I haven't heard of that branch before.

I don't really know, therefore my question.
It is the second Biggest Mormon-Restoration Church after the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

They do have the Book of Mormon but one isn't obliged to believe in it to be true. (They use, however, another numbering of the books of the Book of Mormon.)
And they have the Docrtine and Covenents ('though a modified form; Sections 2, 13, 77, 85, 87, 108-118, 120-138, plus Official Declaration 1-2 are missing in the current Edition of the D&C.) However, they have in the meantime 164 Sections because of revelations of their own prophets. As far as I know the newer parts of their D&C are used for teaching and studying. However, I would see them rather as pastoral letters (like one knows it i.e. from the Catholic Church).
Finally, some (probably older) pastors in the English speaking world use the Inspired Version of the Holy Bible by Joseph Smith Jr. beside the NRSV [their standard bible]. (They edited and published Joseph Smith's manuscripts in the 19th century when they still were "more Mormon")

On the otherside, as mentioned in my OP, they seem to train their pastors in an orthodox Bible Collage.

 

[Sutekh]

The RLDS church no longer exists. It was rolled over into the Community of Christ, which now owns all the property, funds, and the rights to the name RLDS, but the RLDS really are as out of business as American Motors (whose name is now owned by Chrysler.)

The Community of Christ sends its leadership trainees to ultraliberal St. Paul's Methodist Seminary. It sends them there because St. Paul's does not teach the inerrancy of the biblical text, nor does it teach the doctrine of the orthodox Trinity as anything other than "another way of looking at things." this is compatible with current CofC notions, so they settled on St. Paul's compatability and convenience of location.

The Community of Christ is an authoritarian church. The leadership decides what direction the church is going to take, and then it tries to come up with a way to make the membership go in that direction.

The Community of Christ claims that it is the heir and legal assignee to all the rights and existence of the RLDS church, and therefore, all resolutions passed by the old RLDS church are still binding on the CofC, technically, until revoked by Conference action. The Resolutions of the RLDS church plainly state that in all matters of doctrine, the final resort for all questions or disputes in the matter are the "Three Standard Works." These are "The Inspired Version of the Bible" by Joseph Smith, Jr., "The Book of Mormon," and "The Doctrine and Covenants of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

This causes problems for the leadership, because they try to silence critics in the church by saying, "Judge not lest ye be judged," when the Inspired Version of the Bible says, "Judge not unrighteously, but judge righteous judgment."

So the Community of Christ has even joined the National Council of Churches under the fiction that it was started in 1860 by Joseph Smith, III, rather than his father, and by saying that it doesn't use the Three Standard Works any more. However, basically, the church's beliefs, standards and doctrine are actually the ideas hatched by the leadership, who will use any scripture, Bible or otherwise, to justify these to the people, and when the people reject their ideas because of scripture, (as in the matter of homosexual ordination and same-sex marrage,) the leadership turns backward and calls the scriptures unreliable.

The CofC more resembles a stealth incursion of Unitarianism into the NCC than it does orthodoxy in any way.

That's my opinion, and I belonged to the church for over ten years, and I still follow what goes on in it.

Sutekh

 

[Esdra]

Hi sutekh (cool user name btw, I like it, where did you get it from?)

Thank you so much for this great and informative post!
So you have been in the community of christ? Why did you leave, if I may ask?

So to answer my op: the gc is not really an orthodox church. They are somehow Mormons or in other words, they can choose depending on the situation what they want to believe? Can you say that?
And they are Unitarian.

Greetings from Europe,
EsDra

 

[bbbbbbb]

The RLDS church no longer exists. It was rolled over into the Community of Christ, which now owns all the property, funds, and the rights to the name RLDS, but the RLDS really are as out of business as American Motors (whose name is now owned by Chrysler.)

The Community of Christ sends its leadership trainees to ultraliberal St. Paul's Methodist Seminary. It sends them there because St. Paul's does not teach the inerrancy of the biblical text, nor does it teach the doctrine of the orthodox Trinity as anything other than "another way of looking at things." this is compatible with current CofC notions, so they settled on St. Paul's compatability and convenience of location.

The Community of Christ is an authoritarian church. The leadership decides what direction the church is going to take, and then it tries to come up with a way to make the membership go in that direction.

The Community of Christ claims that it is the heir and legal assignee to all the rights and existence of the RLDS church, and therefore, all resolutions passed by the old RLDS church are still binding on the CofC, technically, until revoked by Conference action. The Resolutions of the RLDS church plainly state that in all matters of doctrine, the final resort for all questions or disputes in the matter are the "Three Standard Works." These are "The Inspired Version of the Bible" by Joseph Smith, Jr., "The Book of Mormon," and "The Doctrine and Covenants of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

This causes problems for the leadership, because they try to silence critics in the church by saying, "Judge not lest ye be judged," when the Inspired Version of the Bible says, "Judge not unrighteously, but judge righteous judgment."

So the Community of Christ has even joined the National Council of Churches under the fiction that it was started in 1860 by Joseph Smith, III, rather than his father, and by saying that it doesn't use the Three Standard Works any more. However, basically, the church's beliefs, standards and doctrine are actually the ideas hatched by the leadership, who will use any scripture, Bible or otherwise, to justify these to the people, and when the people reject their ideas because of scripture, (as in the matter of homosexual ordination and same-sex marrage,) the leadership turns backward and calls the scriptures unreliable.

The CofC more resembles a stealth incursion of Unitarianism into the NCC than it does orthodoxy in any way.

That's my opinion, and I belonged to the church for over ten years, and I still follow what goes on in it.

Sutekh

Thank you for the excellent analysis! I have friends who were formerly in the RLDS church and what I heard from them is similar to what you presented, but in less detail. The best thing I can say about the CofC is that it has caused some of its members to think and to realize their need for personal faith in Jesus Christ with the result being that they come to saving faith in Christ and consequently leave the CofC.

 

[Norah63]

Thanks for the two posts by Sutekh and bbbbbbb. That is the most I have ever got to read about the RLDS situation. Having been raised in that faith I knew a lot of this.
Left in the eighties when the liberal wing took over.
My faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ has never wavered.
After thirty years of living in His, and my Heavenly Father's loving care, it is still a wonderful life.
Just stumbled upon this 'unorthodox forum' , no where else to post for some of us.

 

[Rescued One]

My questions would be, "What does the Community of Christ organization teach about the Bible? Do they use the same Book of Mormon that the LDS use?"

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29

 

[GarySneakers]

It all revolves arond the Temple Site and who controls it. I am quite sure that the community of Christ has thousands of undercover LDS members, who someday will gain control of the leadership or maybe they already have.

 

[Albion]

Hi

what do you think of the Community of Christ (former reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)?

Are they orthodox in Theology? Because I've heard that their pastors are trained in orthodox Bible Colleges (I believe it was a College of the United Methodist Church (?))

Esdra

No, they are still latter day saints and accept the Book of Mormon. There are some differences from the Mormons (Utah Church), but they can't seriously be considered "orthodox" Christians.

They are thought by some people to be the original latter day saints, however, so you might consider them to be orthodox LDS.

 

[Rescued One]

It all revolves arond the Temple Site and who controls it. I am quite sure that the community of Christ has thousands of undercover LDS members, who someday will gain control of the leadership or maybe they already have.

Conspiracy theory? Until you have facts your statements are fiction.

 

[Albion]

It all revolves arond the Temple Site and who controls it. I am quite sure that the community of Christ has thousands of undercover LDS members, who someday will gain control of the leadership or maybe they already have.

I may be wrong about this, but I don't find much concern among Mormons about who controls the Temple Lot.

 

[Esdra]

My questions would be, "What does the Community of Christ organization teach about the Bible? Do they use the same Book of Mormon that the LDS use?"


Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29

Hi Phoebe,

I have the CofC Book of Mormon at home. They use more or less the same version than the LDS Church.

But they have another Chapter and Verse Division. They follow the Kirtland-Edition and they haven't taken over the changes the LDS Church made to the BoM after 1838. - And they have recently published a modern-English BoM called Revised Authorized Version where only speeches from or to God and from or to Royalty are in 17th century English (= thou, thee, etc.).

In the CofC Book of Mormon your selection'd be:


Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 3:165-172

3:165 And the angel of the Lord said unto me, Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the plainness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God:

3:166 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God:

3:167 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches;

3:168 For behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious;

3:169 And also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away;

3:170 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord; that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men:

3:171 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God;

3:172 And after these plain and precious things were taken away, it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles:

3:173 And after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen, with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity;

3:174 Thou seest because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God;

3:175 Because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them;


Blessed be,
Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Thanks for the two posts by Sutekh and bbbbbbb. That is the most I have ever got to read about the RLDS situation. Having been raised in that faith I knew a lot of this.
Left in the eighties when the liberal wing took over.
My faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ has never wavered.
After thirty years of living in His, and my Heavenly Father's loving care, it is still a wonderful life.
Just stumbled upon this 'unorthodox forum' , no where else to post for some of us.

Hi.

You left? May I ask which church you're attending know?I think the rlds branches and the community of Christ are too unknown to be mentioned in a religious forum. However,, their bigger brother LDS is mentioned the more often. ;-)

 

[Esdra]

No, they are still latter day saints and accept the Book of Mormon. There are some differences from the Mormons (Utah Church), but they can't seriously be considered "orthodox" Christians.

They are thought by some people to be the original latter day saints, however, so you might consider them to be orthodox LDS.

Interesting wording. ;-) - orthodox LDS. :-D I think a LDS member wouldn't be too amused to read this. From their respective the rlds branches and the cofc are in apostasy. ;-)

Interesting fact: I checked out the (German) website of the cofc and stumbled over a kind of liturgical plan (like the cc or the Lutherans have.
In this reading plan there are no readings of the bom.
So I conclude that they don't read it in their services.
Maybe they have bible gatherings where they read the bom and the d&c?

s)

 

[Albion]

Interesting wording. ;-) - orthodox LDS. :-D I think a LDS member wouldn't add too amused to read this. From their respective the rlds branches and the cofc are in apostasy. ;-)

I am sure that they would not. However, it is also clear that many CofC people consider that to be the situation. What's more, history and law give them a good case.

I am not interested in taking sides there but it is possible to speak of "orthodox" Calvinists," "orthodox Anglicans," or "orthodox Wesleyans," so I figure that it's possible to identify "orthodox Latter day Saints" as well-- meaning true to the original views and practices.

Interesting fact: I checked out the (German) website of the cofc and stumbled over a a kind me liturgical plan (like the cc or the Lutherans have
In this reading plan there are no readings of the bom.
So I conclude that they don't read it in their services.
Maybe they have bible gatherings where they read the bom and the d&c?

That is interesting, I agree. However, I don't know if they do or not read from it in worship services, so I can't say more about that.

 

[TMUMC]

The RLDS/CoC considers the Salt Lake church the apostates, and frankly there is some historical basis for that, considering the fact that physical proof exists showing that Joseph Smith ordained his son to succeed him. Brigham Young assumed leadership instead, telling the members that he had been called of God as their new leader.

 

[Esdra]

The RLDS/CoC considers the Salt Lake church the apostates, and frankly there is some historical basis for that, considering the fact that physical proof exists showing that Joseph Smith ordained his son to succeed him. Brigham Young assumed leadership instead, telling the members that he had been called of God as their new leader.

Is there really a physical historic document that Joseph Smith Jr. ordained his son to be the next president after him?

I have heard that there used to be a document called Appendix G in D&C Edition up to at least the 90ties but that it turned out to be a fake.
Or do you mean something else?

APPENDIX G

THE JOSEPH SMITH PRAYER OF BLESSING AND DESIGNATION​

Many references to one or more instances of Joseph, Jr.’s designation of his son Joseph III to one day become president of the church have appeared in church literature since 1840s. However, until 1981 these references were either secondary in nature or much later reminiscences of firsthand witnesses. While it is true that the early interim leaders of the Reorganization in the 1850s believed that the next president of the church should be a lineal descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr., they possessed no primary documentary evidence that such a designation had been made at a specific time and place in history.
Therefore, from the beginning the Reorganized Church has consistently acted on the conviction that lineal descent in presidency was a valid mode of continuity. More importantly, that continuity has rested on two prior principles: (!) that succession in church presidency is to be initiated by revelation through the incumbent prophet (Section 43:2=, and (“) ratification must be had by the common consent of the church membership (Section 25). Each president has acted on those principles. While each one has indicate that the lineal descent mode of succession is not mandatory, each has designated a lineal descendant of Joseph Smith, Jr., as his successor in office. With the 1981 acquisition and authentication of the January 17, 1844, blessing/designation document, the accession to the prophetic office of Joseph Smith III in 1860 by the principles of revelation and common consent was given a third type of confirmation: specific documentary foundation.
The blessing/designation document found place in the historical appendix to the Doctrine and Covenants through action of the 1982 World Conference. By virtue of that action church members have more immediate access to the terms of the document than otherwise might be possible. In this blessing/designation document there is one more reason to acknowledge the prophetic ministry of the one who designated his son, and of the son who in due course responded to God’s call.



A Blessing, given to Joseph Smith, 3rd., by his father, Joseph Smith, Junr., on Jany. 17. 1844.

Blessed of the Lord is my son Joseph who is called the third, - for the Lord knows the integrity of his heart, and loves him, because of his faith, and righteous desires. And, for this cause, has the Lord raised him up; - that the promises made to the fathers might be fulfilled, even that the anointing of the progenitor shall be upon the heads of my son, and his seed after him, from generation to generation. For he shall be my successor to the presidency of the High Priesthood: a Seer, and a Revelator, and a Prophet, unto the Church; which appointment belongeth to him by blessing, and also by right.
Verily, thus saith the Lord: if he abides in me, his days shall be lengthened upon the earth, but, if he abides not in me, I, the Lord, will receive him, in an instant, unto myself.
​

When he is grown, he shall be a strength to his brethren, and a comfort to his mother. Angels will minister unto him, and he will be wafted as on eagle’s wings, and be as wise as serpents, even a multiplicity of blessings shall be his. Amen.​

 

[TMUMC]

The manuscript of the actual blessing, administered on January 14, 1844, and recorded by Thomas Bullock, is in the RLDS (CoC) Archives Library, and a photocopy exists in the LDS archives. Interestingly, as I was searching for this information, I learned that In 1981, an article appeared in the Deseret News announcing the LDS church's purchase of a document believed to be this blessing. The brethren had not done their homework, however (or exercised priesthood powers of discernment, either, apparently), because it was soon discovered that many thousands of dollars had been paid for this document, as well as others, to forger Mark Hofmann. It proved to be quite an embarrassment to the church in more ways than one.

 

[fatboys]

The manuscript of the actual blessing, administered on January 14, 1844, and recorded by Thomas Bullock, is in the RLDS (CoC) Archives Library, and a photocopy exists in the LDS archives. Interestingly, as I was searching for this information, I learned that In 1981, an article appeared in the Deseret News announcing the LDS church's purchase of a document believed to be this blessing. The brethren had not done their homework, however (or exercised priesthood powers of discernment, either, apparently), because it was soon discovered that many thousands of dollars had been paid for this document, as well as others, to forger Mark Hofmann. It proved to be quite an embarrassment to the church in more ways than one.

Actually a private individual purchased it, and donated to the church