Communion?

MystyRock said:

Thanks everyone. I sometimes feel like I'm assembling a jigsaw puzzle in my mind - not all the pieces are in place. Is this a lifelong project?

Reading through these posts does help. Have you missed me and my questions??

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I'm glad to have your questions!

As to process, I do indeed think it is a life long process. Wesleyans refer to that process as sanctification, or growing in grace. Hopefully it never stops.

MystyRock said:

Don't we need to be in an active relationship with God first?

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Mysty, may I answer this with a rather long story from my own life experience, and then ask you to tell me how you would answer your own question if I had asked it of you?


My story:
At the age of 16, in the summer between my Junior and Senior years of high school, I was attending a camp that I had attended the last several years. Because I was going to be a senior I was among the oldest youth there with the most knowledge of past camps and pretty much everyone at the camp already knew me. This sort of gave me a position of acceptance where, at least in my own mind, everyone there looked up to me.

But while I might have had some importance to this relationship I had with people, one thing that I did not have that some of the others did was a real relationship with Jesus. Who Jesus was to me was primarily a historical figure that was of some significance to the church, but not really a part of my life. I had been raised in the church, but for me my relationship to the church and everyone in it was primarily a social relationship. I went through all the expected motions without rebelling. But as for Jesus being real to me, he was about a real as George Washington. In other words I knew about him, but I didn't know him like one knows a person with whom one is in a living relationship.

Then, one day at the camp, during some free time when all of use youth were just hanging out together, one of the other youth -- a really cute girl that I was already friends with and sort of wanted to become better friends with -- made a suggestion. She suggested that we celebrate a "love feast".

Now, not everyone knows what a "love feast" is anymore, but basically think of it as being like Holy Communion, but it isn't an actual sacrament so we didn't need a clergy person to administer it and it isn't so important what the elements actually are. In our case we didn't have any of the regular stuff like bread and wine or even grape juice. All that we had were butterscotch drops and orange aid.

Now remember, like you have asked about, I really didn't have an active relationship God. All I had was head knowledge, and little of anything else. The other thing I had was a rather strong dislike for butterscotch. OK, "dislike" isn't really the right term, more like "disgust". In fact, perhaps that isn't even strong enough. How about revulsion?

Anyway, my friend who came up with the idea that we needed to do this love feast didn't tell me that it involved butterscotch at first. It was just an idea for something that we could do that was sort of churchy, and of course that is what camp was all about. So, sure, as one who had been around the block a couple of times I could go through with this. But, the question was what were we going to use for this pseudo-communion that we called a "love feast?" And that is when one of the other kids volunteered that they had a bag of butterscotch drops that we could use in place of the bread.

I about left. In fact, I would have left accept for two things. I couldn't leave without it being noticed. And I didn't want to leave and have to explain my leaving later to Sonja.

So, I stayed, though I wasn't so sure about what to with the butterscotch yet. I guessed I could cross the bridge when I came to it. There was a trash can just a couple of feet from me, and I figured that provided a way out if I needed it.

So, Sonja passed the bag of butterscotch drops around the room, and when it came to me I dutifully took one. And for reasons I don't fully know why even today (though I do suspect that nearby trash can is the most likely explanation) I unwrapped it and was preparing to put it into my mouth when Sonja spoke the most horrible words anyone has ever uttered. She said, "when you get the butterscotch don't just bite into it and chew it."

Uh, don't worry, Sonja, the idea never crossed my mind. I'm just going through the motions, and then as fast as I put it in my mouth I intend to spit it right back out. This is, after all, a "love feast" and not an official communion, so I don't have to conform to anyone else's expectations.

"Don't just bite into it and chew it," Sonja continued, "but let it slowly dissolve in your mouth, and while it does think about Jesus' death on the cross the whole time."

Well, this was more than I had bargained for. I looked for a way escape, but there was none. Oh, I could just get up and leave, no one would have stopped me, but there was no gracious way to just slip out. And suddenly the trash can looked like it had move all the way across the room. I really had no idea what to do or how to get out of it. So, I just put the butterscotch in my mouth like I had been instructed.

It was horrible!!

It was every bit as bad as I had anticipated. It was bitter and sour -- absolutely disgusting. There was no way to redeem the moment. Now what?

I didn't know what else to do, so I did what Sonja had suggested; I thought about Jesus on the cross.

I didn't think about any of the theology of the cross or theories of atonement. I just thought about the plain simple reality of what death on a cross entailed. The physical pain and suffering. The nails in the hands and feet. The crown of thorns forced down on his brow. The splinters digging into his back. I remembered that I had been taught that this is what Jesus came to do. And I wondered why anyone would ever go through something like that on purpose?

Then finally it hit me. What I had learned in Sunday school all those years before. Jesus did it for me. And suddenly it struck me even more that if I had been the only one in the world for whom Jesus had needed to go to the cross so that I could have my sins forgiven, he would have. And I figured that if Jesus could die for me, that the least I could do was live for him.

And suddenly, like John Wesley before me, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt that Jesus was real, not just as a figure in history, but as a friend -- a person who I could live my life for and with. I was ready for him to be Lord of my life.

And the moment I said that to myself, the butterscotch that had been so sour, suddenly became sweet. And butterscotch remains something I still like till this day. And, of course, I'm still doing my best to live for Jesus as well.

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So, that's my story, Mysty. Now, you tell me. Before participating in that "communion"/"love feast", did I need to be in an active relationship with God first?

MystyRock said:

So, is communion a way of drawing us close or closer to God?

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We Methodists have always considered it one of several means of grace that God provides for us. But whether or not you experience it to draw you closer or not might vary from one time to the next. Like with so many things in life, what we get out of something is often connected with what we put into it -- at least in part.

MystyRock said:

OK, as a pastor, if you notice someone doesn't participate each month - do you ask them about it?

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Not usually.

MystyRock said:

OK, as a pastor, if you notice someone doesn't participate each month - do you ask them about it?

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No, and that would even be hard for me to do. We have two service lines for communion. So I only usually serve about half the congregation.

Whether I'd ask would depend on how well I know them. Usually I wouldn't, either... but I do feel like a person is "missing out" if they don't receive it. So I might - it just depends. If I asked, it would never be to say "well you should be doing it," or judge or condemn in any way.

I know this is the Wesleyan forum; but Martin Luther did believe it was a sin to actively refuse communion. And it comes down to this; God has offered his grace in a profound and very real way. As United Methodists, and most of our Christian ancestors before us, we understand Communion to be a sacrament. Real, tangible, powerful. God at work. An outward sign of God's inward grace at work in your life. So to say "no" to communion is akin to saying "No" to God's grace.

Now the reason I bring that up is not to make you feel bad (or worse, as the case may be). But really to look at it in this inverse way.

If refusing Communion is refusing, in part, God's prevenient grace (meaning his offer of a redemptive relationship for you), then what is the inverse; receiving? I'd surmise that ones relationship with God can only grow or blossom at the Communion table.

The communion table is not a reward for those who have done well. It's an opportunity to connect to Christ. John Wesley spoke occasionally about Eucharistic "superstitions" that were largely misinterpretations of that passage from the Apostle Paul. People were so afraid of taking communion unworthily that Communion started to look more like hocus pocus and less like the Body of Christ; even worse, so many were denied the opportunity to receive it. To be frank, I don't believe Communion can ever be a sin. I recognize Paul's words about drinking judgement to take it in an 'unworthy manner', but I believe that speaks to a persons own heart and not to the act of taking communion. What if Paul wasn't being prophetic but instead just making it simple. "Hey look, if you can come all the way to this table, experience God's profound grace, receive the Eucharist; and still walk away without an examined soul and without feeling repentant; then you've got some work to do". Frankly, I think that message has a lot more to do with the folks who attend regularly than those like you who struggle. I am far more worried about the people in my congregation who shuffle up to communion, complain about the method we use, receive it and go sit down like they just got done paying their taxes. Talk about an unworthy manner. But a person who has animosity, approaches it with "fear and trembling" as Wesley might say (he often said we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, I think you've got that figured out!), who isn't sure if they should even be there; who isn't sure if their relationship with God is up to snuff; frankly, I can't think of a more important reason to take Communion.

I don't make a lot of promises. I don't stand up and say "If you pray hard enough, God will heal you", because I know sometimes the healing doesn't come. But I'm going to make you a promise. I'm going to do what I never do except in this very specific context (communion); and that is I'm going to tell you how I firmly believe God is going to be at work in your life. If you come to that communion table with everything in your heart that you've expressed hear, accompanied with a prayer for closeness, connection, and a renewed faith in God; ready to respond to God's prevenient Grace, and you receive those elements; then God is going to respond. You won't be condemning yourself to hell, hurting Jesus' feelings or anything other than accepting God's work and the work of the Holy Spirit, and answering God's prevenient grace. I believe that the Communion table is a table of salvation, it's our "altar call", it's where changes are made. As I tell my parishioners often, though our little communion table might be small, old, wooden, and rickety; it's stronger than it looks. And there's no burden big enough, or heavy enough; even a burden of ones own challenges with ones own faith; that our little communion table; or whatever grand or small communion setting you might find yourself in front of; can't handle.

God's blessings to you on your journey. Please, pray about accepting that awesome gift that is the Eucharist. It's yours. God established it for YOU. You do not, can not, and will not earn it. It's not your reward for good deeds. It's your un-deserved, but very much loved, opportunity for new life.

MystyRock said:

Tomorrow is the first Sunday of the month; communion at our church.

I either avoid church on that day or leave early; I am still uncomfortable with communion. In the past 2 years, I've gone from a church drop out to semi-atheist (briefly) and then agnostic; now Methodist. Or at least mostly Methodist.

Is it a sin to not take communion?

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I understand you. My wife and I do that, too. This might help, though. Communion has become a "love feast" instead of a purposeful reconciliation with the Spirit of God. As such, Paul says, "Why not just eat at home?"

The real purpose of communion is to "clean up your act." That is, in taking the wine, you reaffirm that you are saved. In taking the bread, you affirm that you are living the Christian life — conforming to the very image of Jesus Christ.

We are "worthy" of communion if we have confessed our sins before God and, if we have trespassed against others, confessed to them.

But because some are unworthy, some are sickly and some sleep (are dead). How does that work? First, the unsaved taking communion are "guilty of the blood of Christ" — of crucifying Him — but they have not been saved.

Others, though saved, may be living in sin and thereby destroying their bodies, right? Communion is a time to call on God in confession asking His help once again to overcome sin in your life.

When you know this purpose and you know that everyone else does, then that is true communion. But most of the church has turned to "open communion" where the true meaning is totally lost and folks are rejoicing in their own shame.

skypair

circuitrider said:

Usually I primarily hear Baptists use the term "ordinances" because they don't believe in sacraments.

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Baptists don't believe in sacraments because those are things we do (works) in order to appease God's wrath. Before Rome even began to offer sacraments, they were what the pagans did before their gods.

Ordinances, as I understand it, is for us — just like the Sabbath was for the Jews. It is meant to focus us on our relationship with God and a "How's it going" checkup.

skypair

I'm seeing the word "grace" bandied about without much understanding of what grace is. Grace is God's wisdom which, if we apply it to our lives, brings blessings to us.

So prevenient grace is the gospel of Jesus Christ that, if we apply it, brings salvation, right? "By grace [God's wisdom regarding salvation — the gospel] are you saved through faith [in it]…"

And this grace you say comes from communion, when "applied," is a restored and stronger relationship to God, our Father .. by the putting away of sin.

I think even Methodists will appreciate understanding this because they want to grow in grace — the blessings of God part, anyway. And where does grace comes from? From Scripture through the Spirit. The Bible has God's wisdom on all sorts of things! Methodists love the sanctifying wisdom of God that helps us live holy lives.

skypair

Skypair,

You might want to read the forum rules. This area is a place for Wesleyan/Methodist/Nazarene Christians. And not a place to teach Baptist theology. Or try to talk Wesleyan Christians into believing like Baptists.

You appear to have confused the word "sacrament" with the word "sacrifice." A sacrament is a means of grace and not a pagan sacrifice. Grace isn't "wisdom" it is God's unmerited favor.

Methodists don't "bandy about" God's grace. We have a different understanding of God's grace than many Baptists. Wesleyan Christians believe that God's grace works through us preveniently before we are even able to profess faith in Christ. God's grace then leads us to the experience of justification when we profess Christ and God's grace leads us to become more like Christ as we grow in grace through sanctifying grace.

For Wesleyan Christians the emphasis isn't just on "getting saved" it is living a saved life and growing in God's grace.

skypair said:

I understand you. My wife and I do that, too. This might help, though. Communion has become a "love feast" instead of a purposeful reconciliation with the Spirit of God. As such, Paul says, "Why not just eat at home?"

The real purpose of communion is to "clean up your act." That is, in taking the wine, you reaffirm that you are saved. In taking the bread, you affirm that you are living the Christian life — conforming to the very image of Jesus Christ.

We are "worthy" of communion if we have confessed our sins before God and, if we have trespassed against others, confessed to them.

But because some are unworthy, some are sickly and some sleep (are dead). How does that work? First, the unsaved taking communion are "guilty of the blood of Christ" — of crucifying Him — but they have not been saved.

Others, though saved, may be living in sin and thereby destroying their bodies, right? Communion is a time to call on God in confession asking His help once again to overcome sin in your life.

When you know this purpose and you know that everyone else does, then that is true communion. But most of the church has turned to "open communion" where the true meaning is totally lost and folks are rejoicing in their own shame.

skypair

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I have a very different understanding of Communion than what is expressed here. I don't know if you really meant it this way (I'm trusting/hoping I'm misreading you) but this way of expressing it almost makes it Communion into a magic act where one says the right things, jumps through the right hoops, and, voila, God performs whatever it is you've asked of him. And I certainly don't see Communion as a time for guilt & shaming as I hear connotated in "The real purpose of communion is to 'clean up your act'."

I see communion much more as a proclamation of God's grace which is offered freely to all, and received by those who are willing to submit themselves to living in relationship with God through the person and work of Christ. (Note: another word for fellowship is communion. Coincidence? I think not.)

+1 to both GraceSeeker and Circuitrider.

circuitrider said:

You might want to read the forum rules. This area is a place for Wesleyan/Methodist/Nazarene Christians. And not a place to teach Baptist theology. Or try to talk Wesleyan Christians into believing like Baptists.

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I'm sorry. I was responding to a post that had Baptist in it. Also, I am fellowshipping with Methodists so I thought my insight might be helpful.

You appear to have confused the word "sacrament" with the word "sacrifice." A sacrament is a means of grace and not a pagan sacrifice. Grace isn't "wisdom" it is God's unmerited favor.

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Where did the notion of sacraments come from?

As for grace, it is indubitably favor/blessing and unmerited but that doesn't give us any notion of how to receive grace, does it. What I am saying is that God freely gives us His word to apply to our lives in order to receive His grace/favor.

Wesleyan Christians believe that God's grace works through us preveniently before we are even able to profess faith in Christ.

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Absolutely! Without it (the gospel of Jesus Christ), you would not be able to profess faith in Christ, would you?

God's grace then leads us to the experience of justification when we profess Christ and God's grace leads us to become more like Christ as we grow in grace through sanctifying grace.

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Yes, I do not detect that I believe any differently than you except that I give a better meaning to the word grace.

But perhaps you can illuminate me .. how does one experience this grace in order that they will profess faith?

For Wesleyan Christians the emphasis isn't just on "getting saved" it is living a saved life and growing in God's grace.

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Yes, I realize that, too. Do you, in particular, call it "perfectionism?" Do you believe you are eternally saved before you enter into this path of "growing in grace?"

skypair

GraceSeeker said:

I have a very different understanding of Communion than what is expressed here. I don't know if you really meant it this way (I'm trusting/hoping I'm misreading you) but this way of expressing it almost makes it Communion into a magic act where one says the right things, jumps through the right hoops, and, voila, God performs whatever it is you've asked of him. And I certainly don't see Communion as a time for guilt & shaming as I hear connotated in "The real purpose of communion is to 'clean up your act'."

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Perhaps I used to slang a term for it. We all know that, between communions (month-to-month) we can grieve or quench or resist the Spirit and the relationship needs to be restored, right? That is what communion is for. It's to remember the God saved us and He expects us to live like a son "born again" of Him should live.

I see communion much more as a proclamation of God's grace which is offered freely to all, and received by those who are willing to submit themselves to living in relationship with God through the person and work of Christ. (Note: another word for fellowship is communion. Coincidence? I think not.)

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This is what I am concerned about. Is this the view of all Methodists? That some kind of forgiveness of sin and salvation is occurring in communion? What would the meaning of grace be in your notion of what is "freely offered to all?" If a lost person comes in, what kind of relationship/fellowship to God is established through communion?

BTW, this is not Baptist theology either. It is biblical teaching which even the SBC seems to be missing nowadays. My former SBC church went to open communion shortly after the new pastor got here.

Let me clarify — I think you are both treating communion like a "love feast." Paul said in 1Cor 11:21-22, 34 that he should eat such at home.

skypair