So, from a Messianic perspective, where does the contemporary Christian communion fit. Do you see communion strictly as a Passover event, or is this an ordinace to be practiced regularly?
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communion
- Thread starter letmercylead
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Torah
Senior Veteran
Communion or passover
The Church has the Christian sacrament of communion which is taken monthly, biweekly or weekly as seems right to each congregation. Most believe this was something given by the Lord to be followed by the believers.
If we look at the scriptures we see that this instruction to remember him as "often as you eat it " is in the context and setting of the Passover. It was during the Passover Seder with his disciples that Yeshua blessed and broke the Matzah, (unleavened bread) and said this is my body, and the cup after the meal which is the cup of redemption (there are 4 cups of wine during the Seder) with which he identified his blood. And he said to remember him each time they eat the Passover, for this was to be his death, and the redemption of the world.
Never did Messiah institute something different called communion. I am asked sometime what about I Corinthians 11: [20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
I am told that this "Lord's supper is a reference to Communion. However if we look at the letter it seems to have been written just before the Passover. In Chapter 5 Paul tells them to keep the feast and to do so without sin. The reference is clearly to the feast of unleavened bread, which is the 7 days of the Passover.
I Cor 5: [6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? [7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: [8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
So Paul is reprimanding them for lawlessness in their behavior and is telling them to keep the feast but to remember that the leaven represents sin in our lives and that sin must be purged out before keeping the feast.
Now in Chapter 10, same letter and written probably on the same day, he speaks about the exodus as an example of the people who ate the passover and shared the mana, and drank the same water, which was Messiah, and yet because of their sin and rebellion and complaining many fell. His allusions are to the Passover and the exodus all the way through this. When he says in Chapter 10:15, I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"
Paul’s letter to the Corinthians seems to be at the time of Passover as he makes several references to that feast. And it comes up again in this chapter 11. I would like to point out that the "Lords supper" in Chapter 11 is not likely a reference to communion. I have had other Christians say this in the past.
[19] For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
Looking at this section we see one again Paul’s allusions to the Passover:
[23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. [25] After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. [26] For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he comes.
So again the Lord's supper is a reference not to a new communion sacrament but looking at Passover in which the Lord gave them instruction to remember him in the Passover Seder each year.
Notice also Paul rebukes the way they are holding the Passover,
[21] For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [22] What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
I ask you could someone come to communion expecting to be filled, or could they drink wine until they are drunk, even before all have been served? No. But this could happen if the Seder meal was not held with respect because there is much food and wine for all.
Is there any historical proof that Passover was observed and not communion? Yes! Here is a clip from Church historian Epiphanius.
Even the historian Epiphanius (who opposed the Quartodecimens) admitted that the Quartodecimen view was the original view when the Messianic Jews were still in Jerusalem (until 132-135 CE) stating, "it was necessary at that time that the whole world follow them [the Messianic Jews] and celebrate with them so that there should be a single confession . . . celebrating one festival [of Passover]." _ Epiphanius, Pan., 70:10:2
Communion is a sacrament that was made up by the church in Rome and is not a commandment from Yeshua. It did not take hold in the church until after 135 AD. If the church wants to have communion as a new sacrament, that is their own choice of course but this should not be done to the exclusion and neglect of the Passover which we were commanded to observe each year in remembrance of Messiahs death and redemption for us.
The Church has the Christian sacrament of communion which is taken monthly, biweekly or weekly as seems right to each congregation. Most believe this was something given by the Lord to be followed by the believers.
If we look at the scriptures we see that this instruction to remember him as "often as you eat it " is in the context and setting of the Passover. It was during the Passover Seder with his disciples that Yeshua blessed and broke the Matzah, (unleavened bread) and said this is my body, and the cup after the meal which is the cup of redemption (there are 4 cups of wine during the Seder) with which he identified his blood. And he said to remember him each time they eat the Passover, for this was to be his death, and the redemption of the world.
Never did Messiah institute something different called communion. I am asked sometime what about I Corinthians 11: [20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
I am told that this "Lord's supper is a reference to Communion. However if we look at the letter it seems to have been written just before the Passover. In Chapter 5 Paul tells them to keep the feast and to do so without sin. The reference is clearly to the feast of unleavened bread, which is the 7 days of the Passover.
I Cor 5: [6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? [7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: [8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
So Paul is reprimanding them for lawlessness in their behavior and is telling them to keep the feast but to remember that the leaven represents sin in our lives and that sin must be purged out before keeping the feast.
Now in Chapter 10, same letter and written probably on the same day, he speaks about the exodus as an example of the people who ate the passover and shared the mana, and drank the same water, which was Messiah, and yet because of their sin and rebellion and complaining many fell. His allusions are to the Passover and the exodus all the way through this. When he says in Chapter 10:15, I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"
Paul’s letter to the Corinthians seems to be at the time of Passover as he makes several references to that feast. And it comes up again in this chapter 11. I would like to point out that the "Lords supper" in Chapter 11 is not likely a reference to communion. I have had other Christians say this in the past.
[19] For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [20] When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
Looking at this section we see one again Paul’s allusions to the Passover:
[23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. [25] After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. [26] For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he comes.
So again the Lord's supper is a reference not to a new communion sacrament but looking at Passover in which the Lord gave them instruction to remember him in the Passover Seder each year.
Notice also Paul rebukes the way they are holding the Passover,
[21] For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. [22] What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
I ask you could someone come to communion expecting to be filled, or could they drink wine until they are drunk, even before all have been served? No. But this could happen if the Seder meal was not held with respect because there is much food and wine for all.
Is there any historical proof that Passover was observed and not communion? Yes! Here is a clip from Church historian Epiphanius.
Even the historian Epiphanius (who opposed the Quartodecimens) admitted that the Quartodecimen view was the original view when the Messianic Jews were still in Jerusalem (until 132-135 CE) stating, "it was necessary at that time that the whole world follow them [the Messianic Jews] and celebrate with them so that there should be a single confession . . . celebrating one festival [of Passover]." _ Epiphanius, Pan., 70:10:2
Communion is a sacrament that was made up by the church in Rome and is not a commandment from Yeshua. It did not take hold in the church until after 135 AD. If the church wants to have communion as a new sacrament, that is their own choice of course but this should not be done to the exclusion and neglect of the Passover which we were commanded to observe each year in remembrance of Messiahs death and redemption for us.
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Torah
Senior Veteran
So now let’s look at the Passover of the crucifixion from scripture:
Matt 26:17Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? 18And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
As we read the account we see the common features of a typical Passover Seder meal, such as the breaking and blessing of the Matzah, Dipping the bread in sops (Charoset) the blessing for wine, reclining at the table, and the hymn that is sung after the meal, the Hallel of Psalm. Very clearly this was a Passover Seder meal and it was in this setting that Yeshua told to remember him is the bread and the wine and in the deliverance.
Some ague that this could not have been a Passover Seder because the Lambs had not yet been slaughtered in the temple. But to understand this you need to examine the accounts more loosely. What we find is that Yeshua and the Disciples have their Seder in the upper room of what was the residence of King David which is located in the Escene Quarter of Jerusalem. The Escenes are the former Zadokite priests of the Temple prior to Antiochus. These Zadokites were in a special covenant relationship with David. And just as David was to have sons who would rule Israel forever so also the Zadokites are to be priests forever. We see that they will be restored to that position in the Millennial Kingdom. The reason for telling you this is because in that place where the Lord had His last supper, His Seder meal, was with the Escenes and they held a different calendar than the Jews and because of corruption in the temple authority and priesthood, these Escenes performed their own sacrifices. So in this way Messiah was able to have His last Passover Seder with his friends and initiate the New Covenant from David’s throne and after the Seder return to the Judean area where due to this calendar difference it was just the beginning of the preparation day on which the lambs were killed for their Passover. Messiah was arrested tried in a mock trial and then crucified at the same time the Temple priests were killing the Passover lambs. God in His wisdom brought Messiah at a time when there were two Passovers, and when a corrupt priesthood was in place to kill Messiah. I believe that had the Zadokite still been in control of the temple, they would have received Yeshua as Messiah and crowned Him King. But Gods plan of salvation required Messiah to die for us all to bring us new life through rebirth and the promise of the resurrection that is to come.
So it clear again that Messiah did in fact have a Passover Seder and told us to remember him each year ,as oft as you eat it, ( the unleavened bread of the Seder). And as we see above from I Corinthians, Paul instructs the Gentile church there on the correct way to keep the Passover Seder.
Christians believe that their practice of communion comes from the Lord’s Supper however if we look at the true rots of the earliest communion practices we see that it is nothing at all like the Seder. It is heresy that is an insult to Torah. The Gentile church believed as early as 100 AD that the communion or "Lord's Table" was in fact an oblation, a "Sacrifice" like the animal sacrifices of the temple system and that it was superior to what God had given. The bread and wine were believed to be transfigured (mysteriously transformed) into the actual flesh body and blood of Jesus. And Jesus was seen as once again killed for the believer on the Lords table, an altar where the bishop ministered as high priest. The believers were then instructed to eat and drink these transfigured items in order to take into themselves immortality.
The early church believed and taught that since the immortal Jesus was taken into you, and He could not see corruption or decay, your own body then also received immortality, (eternal life) because of the flesh and blood of Jesus in you. If one did not accept communion, they were condemned to die (have no eternal life) and salvation was not possible. The writings of the earliest church fathers Ignatius, Justin Martyr and Ireaneus state these doctrines clearly, emphatically. The same themes are reaffirmed in later writings of Cyril Bishop of Jerusalem and Gregory Bishop of Nyssa.
By the process of the Eucharist, a high ranking church official usually bishop took elements of bread and wine to the altar table. He spoke special prayers and incantations over these causing them to be transformed from common bread and wine, into the actual flesh and blood o Jesus.(so they believed) The priest had control over the people, great power to perform this transubstantiation and to control peoples eternal status. Disallowing one communion condemned them to hell. The faithful would consume these elements in order to hold immortality within their own human bodies.
I say this is an affront to Torah in that it makes an oblation where God does not call for one. It makes a sacrifice of a human, as Messiah is born of a woman and flesh. It causes Gods mercy, salvation and gift of eternal life to be dependent upon a human ritual. It gives the power of salvation or eternal damnation into the hands of a man rather than God.
It is easy to see that this communion is not at all what the Lord told us to do in the context of the Passover Seder; to remember that our redemption, like the first exodus came by way of Gods mercy, His redemption of us, through faith, and that our applying the blood to our doorposts, (the doorposts of our heart) brings God's deliverance. He told us that it was to be a covenantal meal, a meal of remembering, (which is what a Seder is, a telling) to bring to our minds the fact that he is our covenantal head, representing us before God and representing God before us.
Messiah told us to keep the commandments, to live as He lived. The festivals of God go all the way back to the creation. They are part of the cycles he established. The word for festival in Hebrew is Moed, Moedim=plural). Moed is the same word that is used in the opening verse of Genesis, "At the appointed time". God established the moon and stars for signs and seasons, to point to the appointed times the Moedim. We will keep these in the millennial kingdom and we benefit greatly from keeping them now. We can not keep all the details of offerings and temple service today, however we are privileged to keep as much of it as we are able today and to allow Adonai (the Lord) to take care of the rest. It is a blessing to us. It is far superior to do these than to take upon us the Yoke of man made traditions that have no foundation on Gods word.
The appointed times, the festivals like all of Torah is given to all men who live by faith, who desire to be obedient to the Lord, including the Gentile who have attached themselves to Israel and the God of Israel. We are the strangers (Gentiles, Goy, Ger) who sojourn with them.
Numbers 15: [15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Matt 26:17Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? 18And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
As we read the account we see the common features of a typical Passover Seder meal, such as the breaking and blessing of the Matzah, Dipping the bread in sops (Charoset) the blessing for wine, reclining at the table, and the hymn that is sung after the meal, the Hallel of Psalm. Very clearly this was a Passover Seder meal and it was in this setting that Yeshua told to remember him is the bread and the wine and in the deliverance.
Some ague that this could not have been a Passover Seder because the Lambs had not yet been slaughtered in the temple. But to understand this you need to examine the accounts more loosely. What we find is that Yeshua and the Disciples have their Seder in the upper room of what was the residence of King David which is located in the Escene Quarter of Jerusalem. The Escenes are the former Zadokite priests of the Temple prior to Antiochus. These Zadokites were in a special covenant relationship with David. And just as David was to have sons who would rule Israel forever so also the Zadokites are to be priests forever. We see that they will be restored to that position in the Millennial Kingdom. The reason for telling you this is because in that place where the Lord had His last supper, His Seder meal, was with the Escenes and they held a different calendar than the Jews and because of corruption in the temple authority and priesthood, these Escenes performed their own sacrifices. So in this way Messiah was able to have His last Passover Seder with his friends and initiate the New Covenant from David’s throne and after the Seder return to the Judean area where due to this calendar difference it was just the beginning of the preparation day on which the lambs were killed for their Passover. Messiah was arrested tried in a mock trial and then crucified at the same time the Temple priests were killing the Passover lambs. God in His wisdom brought Messiah at a time when there were two Passovers, and when a corrupt priesthood was in place to kill Messiah. I believe that had the Zadokite still been in control of the temple, they would have received Yeshua as Messiah and crowned Him King. But Gods plan of salvation required Messiah to die for us all to bring us new life through rebirth and the promise of the resurrection that is to come.
So it clear again that Messiah did in fact have a Passover Seder and told us to remember him each year ,as oft as you eat it, ( the unleavened bread of the Seder). And as we see above from I Corinthians, Paul instructs the Gentile church there on the correct way to keep the Passover Seder.
Christians believe that their practice of communion comes from the Lord’s Supper however if we look at the true rots of the earliest communion practices we see that it is nothing at all like the Seder. It is heresy that is an insult to Torah. The Gentile church believed as early as 100 AD that the communion or "Lord's Table" was in fact an oblation, a "Sacrifice" like the animal sacrifices of the temple system and that it was superior to what God had given. The bread and wine were believed to be transfigured (mysteriously transformed) into the actual flesh body and blood of Jesus. And Jesus was seen as once again killed for the believer on the Lords table, an altar where the bishop ministered as high priest. The believers were then instructed to eat and drink these transfigured items in order to take into themselves immortality.
The early church believed and taught that since the immortal Jesus was taken into you, and He could not see corruption or decay, your own body then also received immortality, (eternal life) because of the flesh and blood of Jesus in you. If one did not accept communion, they were condemned to die (have no eternal life) and salvation was not possible. The writings of the earliest church fathers Ignatius, Justin Martyr and Ireaneus state these doctrines clearly, emphatically. The same themes are reaffirmed in later writings of Cyril Bishop of Jerusalem and Gregory Bishop of Nyssa.
By the process of the Eucharist, a high ranking church official usually bishop took elements of bread and wine to the altar table. He spoke special prayers and incantations over these causing them to be transformed from common bread and wine, into the actual flesh and blood o Jesus.(so they believed) The priest had control over the people, great power to perform this transubstantiation and to control peoples eternal status. Disallowing one communion condemned them to hell. The faithful would consume these elements in order to hold immortality within their own human bodies.
I say this is an affront to Torah in that it makes an oblation where God does not call for one. It makes a sacrifice of a human, as Messiah is born of a woman and flesh. It causes Gods mercy, salvation and gift of eternal life to be dependent upon a human ritual. It gives the power of salvation or eternal damnation into the hands of a man rather than God.
It is easy to see that this communion is not at all what the Lord told us to do in the context of the Passover Seder; to remember that our redemption, like the first exodus came by way of Gods mercy, His redemption of us, through faith, and that our applying the blood to our doorposts, (the doorposts of our heart) brings God's deliverance. He told us that it was to be a covenantal meal, a meal of remembering, (which is what a Seder is, a telling) to bring to our minds the fact that he is our covenantal head, representing us before God and representing God before us.
Messiah told us to keep the commandments, to live as He lived. The festivals of God go all the way back to the creation. They are part of the cycles he established. The word for festival in Hebrew is Moed, Moedim=plural). Moed is the same word that is used in the opening verse of Genesis, "At the appointed time". God established the moon and stars for signs and seasons, to point to the appointed times the Moedim. We will keep these in the millennial kingdom and we benefit greatly from keeping them now. We can not keep all the details of offerings and temple service today, however we are privileged to keep as much of it as we are able today and to allow Adonai (the Lord) to take care of the rest. It is a blessing to us. It is far superior to do these than to take upon us the Yoke of man made traditions that have no foundation on Gods word.
The appointed times, the festivals like all of Torah is given to all men who live by faith, who desire to be obedient to the Lord, including the Gentile who have attached themselves to Israel and the God of Israel. We are the strangers (Gentiles, Goy, Ger) who sojourn with them.
Numbers 15: [15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. [16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
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Torah,
You use the words communion, Lord's supper and eucharist as totally interchangeable. You also then use the same words (communion and Lord's supper) with one being a derivative of the other!
I can see the general points you are making but the detail is less clear.
Eucharist is but one tradition and should by no means be used as a generality of all Christians. 'Communion', 'the Last Supper', 'the Lord's Supper' and 'breaking the bread' are all describing the same thing - none are derivatives of each other although all are derived from the Eucharist via the Reformation.
All are based on the account (or at least on part of the account - most miss out the bit about judgement) in 1 Corinthians 11 and, in most church traditions, have little or no obvious connection with the Passover, though some ministers are brave enough to make the connection clear and to use Messianic meanings.
You use the words communion, Lord's supper and eucharist as totally interchangeable. You also then use the same words (communion and Lord's supper) with one being a derivative of the other!
I can see the general points you are making but the detail is less clear.
Eucharist is but one tradition and should by no means be used as a generality of all Christians. 'Communion', 'the Last Supper', 'the Lord's Supper' and 'breaking the bread' are all describing the same thing - none are derivatives of each other although all are derived from the Eucharist via the Reformation.
All are based on the account (or at least on part of the account - most miss out the bit about judgement) in 1 Corinthians 11 and, in most church traditions, have little or no obvious connection with the Passover, though some ministers are brave enough to make the connection clear and to use Messianic meanings.
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This has far more impact on the hearer if read in the first person singular: ...on the night in which I was betrayed, I took bread, gave thanks, and broke it, saying...
It is, after all, what Yeshua would have said - it is only that Paul wrote it down that makes it in the third person.
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
Letmelead, permit me to be silly a moment. Our dollies are twins! LOL!
...sorry to derail. The only thing I can add is that some Messianics view communion as something only necessary at the Passover and others view it as something done often. It depends on who you ask.
...sorry to derail. The only thing I can add is that some Messianics view communion as something only necessary at the Passover and others view it as something done often. It depends on who you ask.
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But then, Kris, there is a very real difference between the Eucharist and communion - they are not, and never will be, the same! I would think it highly unlikely that a Messianic would ever attend a Eucharist, but I could see them attending communion quite easily.
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
Oh, I agree! I'm sorry. I didn't mean for my post to come across "as opposed to yours". I didn't have a lot to add and just added my little piece.
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Oh, I agree! I'm sorry. I didn't mean for my post to come across "as opposed to yours". I didn't have a lot to add and just added my little piece.
Don't worry - no problem...I didn't see you as disagreeing
I was just commenting to clarify that Eucharist and Communion are vastly different, both in action and in theology because I think Torah has them looking too much the same.
You just keep adding to it all!
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Kris10leigh
Actively seeking conversion
Don't worry - no problem...I didn't see you as disagreeing
I was just commenting to clarify that Eucharist and Communion are vastly different, both in action and in theology because I think Torah has them looking too much the same.
You just keep adding to it all!
It used to bother me that Catholics excluded all non-Catholics from communion. Then I learned that Catholics believe the bread literally becomes the body and the wine literally becomes the blood. By receiving communion in the Catholic church, you too are espousing those beliefs. Then I became ok with being refused communion.
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johnd
Well-Known Member
It's all such a vast array of traditions of men isn't it? Based on the passage that says "as often as you do this..." If the subject was tax time (here in the US anyway) "as often as you do this" would be understood to mean April 15th at 11:59.99 PM.
The whole thing is Passover Seder and Yeshua declaring he is the point of it and purpose for it. Before his sacrifice it was predictive prophecy. Since then it is memorial prophecy.
The whole thing is Passover Seder and Yeshua declaring he is the point of it and purpose for it. Before his sacrifice it was predictive prophecy. Since then it is memorial prophecy.
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I've had Messianic beliefs for the last 5 years but there is no fellowship to participate in around here, so in addition to my own studies on Sabbath, I recently stated to attend a local non-denominational church. I wasn't really sure how is would go, but so far things have been good. The pastor is well aware of my beliefs concerning Torah/ feasts/ food issues/ etc. and it hasn't caused any contentions, but every time they do "communion" I don't participate. I guess my feeling was that I believe that the verses used in NT scriptures are referring to Passover, which I DO participate in and from my perspective it is of no consequence to me to have a little piece of bread and a little sip of grape juice with the congregation in a rememberance (I wouldn't participate in the whole Catholic Eucharist ceremony because of the whole transubstination issues,etc.--nor would they want me to, so its all good!) but it holds no significance for me so I choose to not partake.... I have a feeling that the pastor has taken notice of this and so I want to go talk with him about it but before doing so, I wanted to "get all my ducks in a row" so to speak..... Thanks very much for the long post, Torah..... I think I will print it out and take it with me if that's okay....you've explained very clearly what I believe much more in depth (with references!) than what I would have been able to accomplish. My biggest stumbling block was the 1 Corinthians 11 issue referring to the Lords Supper....but you've made that a little more clear for me. Further down in the chapter it talks about partaking "unworthily" and I really never understood that clearly in my "pre-Messianic" days because technically we are ALL unworthy.... but with the understanding that the *instructions* for God's people have always been the same and will continue until after the Millenium (when heaven and earth pass away!) then it all makes much more sense. When the partaking unworthily from a Messianic perspective is referring to Passover, it is much more clear in light of the instructions about people NOT aligned with God's people partaking. (My understanding of scripture has become so much more enriched from my Messianic perspective! 
)
Now for another question.... looking for insights as to what is our responsibility for allowing others to celebrate the rich tradition of the feast of Passover? My teenage daugter has invited friends from school to participate with our Passover celebration. I understand this isn't about them needing to adhere to Messianic beliefs to participate, but it IS a matter of faith. I have always allowed anyone to join us that has expressed an interest simply because I think that the contemporary church has made faith somewhat anemic by removing all of the heritage from the Jewish people. I felt that if they participated and saw the deep meanings in the traditions, the LORD could use that to touch their hearts and open their eyes... Any opinions or thoughts?
)Now for another question.... looking for insights as to what is our responsibility for allowing others to celebrate the rich tradition of the feast of Passover? My teenage daugter has invited friends from school to participate with our Passover celebration. I understand this isn't about them needing to adhere to Messianic beliefs to participate, but it IS a matter of faith. I have always allowed anyone to join us that has expressed an interest simply because I think that the contemporary church has made faith somewhat anemic by removing all of the heritage from the Jewish people. I felt that if they participated and saw the deep meanings in the traditions, the LORD could use that to touch their hearts and open their eyes... Any opinions or thoughts?
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johnd
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I am not your run of the mill Messianic. I believe the purest form of faith in the Jewish Messiah and the Hebrew God is Messianic Judaism... and whether or not those who believe in Yeshua / Jesus want to admit it or believe it, all CHRISTians are MESSIAHnics. Denials and diverse doctrines (to replace the doctrines God ordained through Judaism) just create contradictions and conflict and needless difficulties.
Take the subject of the OP. Different denominations will go to the mat bleeding to a pulp over which form of non-Passover communion is the "right" way...If they'd just take God's word for it, we'd all keep Seder and marvel how it points to the Messiah Yeshua and even the triune nature of God.
There are Messianics and there are Messianics in denial.
Take the subject of the OP. Different denominations will go to the mat bleeding to a pulp over which form of non-Passover communion is the "right" way...If they'd just take God's word for it, we'd all keep Seder and marvel how it points to the Messiah Yeshua and even the triune nature of God.
There are Messianics and there are Messianics in denial.
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Sounds like a great idea!...you never know who the LORD might bring or what doors He might open. Many blessings!
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