Communion Bread - Question

[MystyRock]

An issue has come up in our church recently. For communion, our pastor normally has pita bread; one member of our church has complained and said this wasn't biblical. Communion must have unleavened bread only.

And, of course, I've had my own problems with communion - so this isn't helping.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[Nihilistic Journey]

Isn't unleavened bread simply bread made without a leavening agent such as yeast? Wouldn't pita bread be unleavened bread?

 

[Celticflower]

Pita bread is considered to be slightly leavened.

I find the whole complaint to be a bit legalistic. When we were in PA my favorite communion was always on World Wide Communion Sunday - we used breads from around the world and you could pick which one you wanted. It helped to reinforce the idea of being united with Christians around the world.
The church we attend now (a non-denom *sigh*) uses those horrid little square wafer things that taste like paper.

 

[circuitrider]

An issue has come up in our church recently. For communion, our pastor normally has pita bread; one member of our church has complained and said this wasn't biblical. Communion must have unleavened bread only.

And, of course, I've had my own problems with communion - so this isn't helping.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

There aren't any rules in the UMC about what kind of bread to use. In our official statement about communion "This Holy Mystery" or another resource I read suggested not using flavored breads. But those are just suggestions.

What kind of bread to use in communion is really at the pastors discretion. As said above, I think this is getting too picky. I'd like the church member to find a single passage of scripture that says "communion has to use unleavened bread." Yes the bread in passover is unleavened. But we aren't celebrating the passover.

Also, United Methodists usually use grape juice in communion and Jesus used wine. Would this gentleman want your church to switch to wine too?

 

[MystyRock]

One thing they said did make me think. They said we were eating bread that Jesus couldn't even eat because he observed the passover.

 

[Dave-W]

Isn't unleavened bread simply bread made without a leavening agent such as yeast? Wouldn't pita bread be unleavened bread?

Pita definitely uses yeast. It is how the pocket develops in the middle.

Almost all grocery stores carry Matzah (true unleavened bread) so there is no lack of source.

 

[Dave-W]

Yes the bread in passover is unleavened. But we aren't celebrating the passover.

For that reason the Eastern Orthodox churches INSIST on leavened bread. To my mind that smacks of antisemitism. (If the Jews do that, we have to do something else...)

I guess the real question is do we take the communion tradition more from Passover or from Kiddish? (sanctifying the Sabbath) There is evidence for each.

It certainly started off as a Passover meal in the gospels. In 1 Corinthians Paul reduced communion from a fellowship meal (Passover) to just taking the bread and wine elements. That certainly leans more toward Kiddish. The tradition of celebrating it weekly (as listed in the early church writings) also leans toward Kiddish. Passover is once a year.

The one type I find NO historic or biblical precedent for is Celtic Flower's "horrid little square wafer things that taste like paper." I remember those things. They were nasty.

 

[circuitrider]

One thing they said did make me think. They said we were eating bread that Jesus couldn't even eat because he observed the passover.

Well, he couldn't it it during the passover observance I suppose. But Jesus did change the passover liturgy to create Holy Communion. That would have also been a big no no.

If you really really want accuracy we'd all have to use matza and wine for communion. But then we don't even know what kind of wine Jesus was drinking either.

None of the liturgy of communion is effected by the leavening or lack of leavening of the bread. Only the passover is effected by that.

IMHO I do think we need to use elements that have a reasonable resemblance to bread and wine. I would be very uncomfortable with Moon Pies and RC Cola for communion for example.

But when we start arguing about what kind of bread and what kind of wine I think we really are missing the point of the Great Thanksgiving.

 

[Dave-W]

"Moon Pies and RC Cola?" LOL!

Not sure that quite fits the "body and blood" of our Lord symbology very well.

"But Jesus did change the passover liturgy to create Holy Communion. That would have also been a big no no. "

Not really. As a rabbi - he was free to modify the liturgy to fit his own teachings. That was common during the first century; and as long as the basic structure and necessary elements were present, it was fine. It was not really "set in stone" until the 2nd century after the destruction of the temple.

If you understand the liturgy (it has not changed that much since the first century bc) communion fits right in. There are even clues in the gospels as to WHERE in the liturgy it fits. "The cup after supper" clearly refers to the third out of four cups of wine/grape juice which is called in the liturgy "the cup of redemption." I think the connection is obvious.

BTW - if you are interested in looking at the Passover liturgy from a New Covenant perspective, I published a small e-book a few years ago which is available for most e-readers, smart phones and tablets. Just search in your e-reader library for "Messianic Passover Haggadah" and "Waggoner."

 

[circuitrider]

Thanks DavidW.

In a United Methodist Church it is really up to the pastor as the "minister of Word, Sacrament, Order and Service" to choose the bread for communion. From our theological perspective the document "This Holy Mystery" is the official theology of Communion in the UMC.

It gives the following instruction on bread. Note that it says leavened and unleavened are equally acceptable.

It is appropriate that the bread eaten in Holy Communion both look and taste like bread. The use of a whole loaf best signifies the unity of the church as the body of Christ and, when it is broken and shared, our fellowship in that body (1 Corinthians 10:16-17).
Historical continuity with the practice of the universal church is important; however, worship planners should be sensitive to local situations. Bread may be made from any grain according to availability. In ecumenical and other settings, wafers may be an appropriate choice.
The loaf should be plain bread (no frostings, nuts, raisins, artificial coloring, or other additions). Leavened or unleavened bread is equally acceptable. In congregations where there are people with gluten allergies, gluten-free bread may be offered. The loaf broken at the table is to be the bread distributed to the people. As appropriate to the dignity of the occasion, care should be taken to avoid excessive crumbling of the bread and to remove large pieces that fall to the floor.

 

[MystyRock]

In the OT, did leavening represent sin?

 

[Dave-W]

In the OT, did leavening represent sin?

No. If it did then the grain offerings presented at Shavuot (feast of weeks - aka pentecost) would not have REQUIRED leavening.

Leviticus 23:15 ‘You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. 16 You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the Lord. 17 You shall bring in from your dwelling places two loaves of bread for a wave offering, made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to the Lord.

Paul uses leaven as an image for the action of sin. Our Lord used it as an image for the action of righteousness.

Luke 13.20 And again He said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”

 

[circuitrider]

I don't think we should sever communion from its roots in Judaism either. But that is a far cry from Communion being Passover.

 

[Dave-W]

If you are interested in a look at the liturgy of the Jewish seder, I wrote an e-book version a couple of years back. It is available on most e-readers and tablets.

 

[circuitrider]

There is a structure to the way United Methodists share in Holy Communion. If you can look at a copy of the UMC hymnal you can see it. Or I'm sure you can find it on the internet.

It starts with the Sursum Corda which is the opening dialogue.

"The Lord be with You"
And also with You"
"Lift up your hearts"
"We lift them up to the Lord"

This is followed by our retelling our understanding of the holiness of God and the saying or singing the Sanctus

Holy holy holy Lord God of power and might
Heaven and earth are full of your glory
Hosanna in the highest, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord
Hosanna in the highest

The next section is the "anamnesis" or "remembrance." This is where we related the story from the New Testament events at the last supper. We conclude the anamnesis with the memorial affiramtion "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again."

The next section is the "epiclesis" which is invoking the presence of the holy spirit and asking God to bless the bread and wine (or juice).

Then we have the breaking of the bread and then the sharing communion with the congregation.

This structure is ancient and goes back to the early Church.

All that is to say that the "remembrance" portion is only a part of Holy Communion. Holy Communion is not just a memorial of the previous acts of Christ in the upper room. For United Methodists it is a sacrament and a means of grace.

 

[MystyRock]

OK. I started this thread about communion bread. I come from a very legalistic background and having some difficulties distinguishing between obedience and being legalistic.

Methodists also believe communion is a means of grace; I've read about this online, but still not quite getting it. Is grace "given" at communion?

 

[circuitrider]

OK. I started this thread about communion bread. I come from a very legalistic background and having some difficulties distinguishing between obedience and being legalistic.

Methodists also believe communion is a means of grace; I've read about this online, but still not quite getting it. Is grace "given" at communion?

Yes, God gives us grace in our participation in Holy Communion. Grace means his unmerited favor and love.

John Wesley called communion the "Grand Channel" of God's grace and believed you should commune as often as you are able. He himself communed several times a week.

 

[James Is Back]

Mod Hat On

Thread has undergone a huge cleanup. If your post is gone that is the reason. I will remind everyone of the rule found here - http://www.christianforums.com/t7396067/

House Rules-
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

Mod Hat Off
​

 

[MystyRock]

Thank you!

 

[Cappadocious]

For that reason the Eastern Orthodox churches INSIST on leavened bread. To my mind that smacks of antisemitism.

Tis not why.