commandments of men

Velcro · Mar 23, 2005

Hi, 2Timothy2. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I have a physical problem, and once in a while I go through a few days of extreme tiredness. I am there right now. FUN!!!

Anyway, I guess one thing I would ask you at this moment is who declared the Sabbath, seventh day, blessed for rest, named it, and separated it from the rest of the days as compared to who declared Sunday the day of rest.

My friend, I know that it is said that the apostles decided to observe Sunday as the day of the resurrection, rather than the Sabbath, but where is the Scriptural evidence of this? I recognize that the Scripture re gathering on the first day of the week to collect alms is used as evidence, but this is only evidence to those who understand neither the Hebrew calendar nor the common practices of observant Jews. I know, too, that eating together on the first day of the week is thought to be evidence of both Sunday worship (instead of Sabbath) and of the common practice of Communion, but it is only evidence to those who do not understand the common practices of Jewish believers nor Passover practices.

This is what I would suggest: read all the proof texts in the Bible for Sunday worship instead of Sabbath observance. Ask youself who commanded each of the two -- who commanded Sabbath observance and who commanded Sunday worship to replace Sabbath worship. Then I would suggest that you ignore everyone here and do your own research on Sunday worship and its beginnings as well as who ordered it. Learn who died as a result. Learn the reasons for the demand for change. Your library encyclopedias and other books, as well as the Internet, will give you more information than you even want to read.

With regard to the new covenant, we who truly believe and have accepted the L-rd certainly are, as you wrote, in the new covenant, but we are merely the first fruits of the new covenant; the time of the new covenant has not yet arrived. The things that have been prophesied that will usher in the new covenant in its fullness have not yet happened.

pablosrun · Mar 23, 2005

Preach it Velcro

graysparrow · Mar 23, 2005

Nobody has yet been able to prove gentiles are obliged to celebrate the Sabbath.

pablosrun · Mar 23, 2005

graysparrow said:
Nobody has yet been able to prove gentiles are obliged to celebrate the Sabbath.

Acts 13:42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Hmmmmmmmmmm

what does that say then??????????????????????????

Zoomer · Mar 23, 2005

Since Jesus has come as our Savior and Lord, God no longer requires us to observe any one particular day for worship...

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col 2:16-17

"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord." Rom 14:5-8

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Are you saying that SDA's are free from the commandments of men?

graysparrow · Mar 23, 2005

That verse proves the gentiles wanted to attend the synagogue at the Sabbath...

but

It does NOT prove they HAD to.

------
and remember in a few years christians were not exactly welcomed at a synagogue

pablosrun · Mar 23, 2005

graysparrow said:
That verse proves the gentiles wanted to attend the synagogue at the Sabbath...

but

It does NOT prove they HAD to.

------
and remember in a few years christians were not exactly welcomed at a synagogue

we dont keep the commandments because we have to...

we keep the commandments because we are saved not to be saved...

Keeping the commandments won't get you into heaven but not keeping them will keep you out!!!!!!!!!!

Oblio · Mar 23, 2005

Keeping the commandments won't get you into heaven but not keeping them will keep you out!!!!!!!!!!

So do you believe that not keeping ritual dietary and Sabbath laws given to preIncarnation Jews will keep you, a modern Gentile, out of heaven ?

pablosrun · Mar 23, 2005

Oblio said:
So do you believe that not keeping ritual dietary and Sabbath laws given to preIncarnation Jews will keep you, a modern Gentile, out of heaven ?

The sabbath was given at creation Gen. 2:3 before there was ever Jew or gentile..

When I say commandments I mean the 10, and sin is transgression of the law, so if you break a commandment and dont think your doin wrong it is still sin. So if you think its ok to do what you are doing, you probably wont repent of it therfore it is un-repented sin...can you get into heaven with unrepented sin????

Oblio · Mar 23, 2005

The sabbath was given at creation Gen. 2:3 before there was ever Jew or gentile..

But the Sabbath Law was not. Nor was it given to modern Jews or Gentiles. I'll ask again:

So do you believe that not keeping ritual dietary and Sabbath laws given to preIncarnation Jews will keep you, a modern Gentile, out of heaven ?

Yes or No ?

pablosrun · Mar 23, 2005

Oblio said:
But the Sabbath Law was not. Nor was it given to modern Jews or Gentiles. I'll ask again:

So do you believe that not keeping ritual dietary and Sabbath laws given to preIncarnation Jews will keep you, a modern Gentile, out of heaven ?

Yes or No ?

It's not that simple, Dietary no , Sabbath no, not at this present time,but there will come a time when you have to chose between the commandments of God or the commandments of man.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him if we keep his commandments

2:4 He that saith I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 7:23 and then will I profess unto them,I never new you: depart from me ye that work iniquity.

Does that make sence at all or am I just grasping at straws?

Zoomer · Mar 24, 2005

we dont keep the commandments because we have to...

we keep the commandments because we are saved not to be saved...

Keeping the commandments won't get you into heaven but not keeping them will keep you out!!!!!!!!!!

Boy is that a contradiction. In the last statement you say that not keeping the commandments will keep us out of heaven, but that we do not have to follow them to be saved .

Does that make sence at all or am I just grasping at straws?

I'd say grasping at straws...

Iollain · Mar 24, 2005

I wonder, is it natural for a Christian Jew to preach the Mosaic Law? And is it natural that some Gentiles will listen and join them? I would say 'yes' to the first question.

pablosrun · Mar 24, 2005

Zoomer said:
Boy is that a contradiction. In the last statement you say that not keeping the commandments will keep us out of heaven, but that we do not have to follow them to be saved .

I'd say grasping at straws...

Not keeping the commandments will Keep you out of heaven if the sin is unrepented of.

So what you believe is that you can break the commandments and just be cause you believe in Jesus you are going to heaven?

The bible says the devils also believe and tremble.(James 2:19)

James 2:17 Even so faith if it hath not works is dead , being alone
18, Yea a man say, thou hast faith and I have works:show me thy faith without thy works , and I will show thee faith by my works

So there you have it faith without works is dead,so believing alone is not enough!

If you are breaking a commandment of God you must repent, without repentance you can't get in to heaven,Worshiping on Sunday A man made commandment,when God said the seventh day (saturday)and the Roman Catholic church changed the day to Sunday the 1st day of the week,you are now following the commandments of men and are worshiping on the venerable day of the sun, sun worship, paganism, and an abomination to God.

Take a look!

Ezekiel 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lords house,and,behold,at the door of the temple of the lord,between the porch and the alter,were about five and twenty men,with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, andtheir faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.......sun worship

Ezekiel 22:8 Thou hast despised mine holy things and hast profaned my sabbaths

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men..

It's all about true and acceptable worship,even with Caine and Abel,Abel put his Lamb on the alter the way the Lord said and it was accepted by God when he sent his fire to accept the sacrifice. But Caine was a tiller of the ground and put fruits and vegetables on the alter(when God said to use a lamb),and God did not send his fire to burn the offering like he did Abel who obeyed God.He did not accept false worship, Caine was angry and jealous and killed his brother....

Mathew 7:21 Not every one the saith Lord Lord, shall enter into into the kingdow of heaven; but they who do the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22, Many will say to me in that day,Lord ,Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity...

So how do we know God?

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. 4, He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,is a liar and the truth is not in him.

What is Gods will?

Psalms 40:8I delight to do thy will, Omy God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

So Gods law (the ten commandments),is his will..

So if you don't keep the commandments of God you are not walking according to His will you may hear I never knew you..

Gods commandments or the commandments of men?

Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25 are the same...

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death...

Your choice!!!!!!!

pablosrun · Mar 24, 2005

Hey Zoomer

Did you know that Martin Luther said it pained him in is heart to know that the office of the Papacy(the Pope) was antichrist,.....not my words his....and your church has just reconciled with the Catholic church saying it was all a big misunderstanding..(he would roll over in his grave)...So you are worshiping on a day,given by the same office that your church founder said was antichrist?

Martin Luther had great knew light for the church,but the church has never moved forward and sought more new light..

Commandments of men

Old school or New age?

Zoomer · Mar 24, 2005

Did you know that Martin Luther said it pained him in is heart to know that the office of the Papacy(the Pope) was antichrist,.....not my words his....and your church has just reconciled with the Catholic church saying it was all a big misunderstanding..(he would roll over in his grave)...So you are worshiping on a day,given by the same office that your church founder said was antichrist?

We (LCMS) have not reconciled with the Catholic church on the issue, so you have been misinformed. That said, I do have more respect for my Catholic brethen than I do for a new religious movement, even if I do not agree with them about the Pope.

Acts 20:7- "And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."

That did not gel with the SDA teachings so if you are using the official SDA Bible Clear Water, it was changed to read...

"After sundown on Saturday night, the believers got together for a fellowship meal and to say good-by to Paul. That evening he spoke to them until midnight, after which he hoped to get a few hours sleep before leaving early Sunday morning."
http://www.sda-egw.com/clear_word_bible.htm

Notice the change to Saturday instead of the first day of the week (Sunday) and to a mere fellowship meal, from "breaking bread" which was used by the apostles to mean Communion/Lord's Supper. This is just one of many major changes made to the Bible.

Do you believe that those of us who do not celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday are going to hell?

pablosrun · Mar 24, 2005

Zoomer said:
We (LCMS) have not reconciled with the Catholic church on the issue, so you have been misinformed. That said, I do have more respect for my Catholic brethen than I do for a new religious movement, even if I do not agree with them about the Pope.

Acts 20:7- "And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."

That did not gel with the SDA teachings so if you are using the official SDA Bible Clear Water, it was changed to read...

"After sundown on Saturday night, the believers got together for a fellowship meal and to say good-by to Paul. That evening he spoke to them until midnight, after which he hoped to get a few hours sleep before leaving early Sunday morning."
http://www.sda-egw.com/clear_word_bible.htm

Notice the change to Saturday instead of the first day of the week (Sunday) and to a mere fellowship meal, from "breaking bread" which was used by the apostles to mean Communion/Lord's Supper. This is just one of many major changes made to the Bible.

Do you believe that those of us who do not celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday are going to hell?

No I do not believe you are going to hell but there will come a time when you have to chose between Gods law and the commandments of men...

I use the king james version!!!!!!!!

If sin is transgression of the law 1John 3:4

then not resting and keeping holy the seventh day is sin...unrepented sin because of blindness.......the way I see it is satan is the great deceiver and what better than to have everyone worship on the wrong day because of tradition...

And you know what Jesus said about chosing mans tradition over Gods Law

holo · Mar 24, 2005

What part of "we are not under law but under grace" do you guys not understand?

If you're jewish you might want to honour your heritage by keeping the sabbath or any other commandment, but if you're a gentile you were never under the law.

pablosrun · Mar 24, 2005

holo said:
What part of "we are not under law but under grace" do you guys not understand?

If you're jewish you might want to honour your heritage by keeping the sabbath or any other commandment, but if you're a gentile you were never under the law.

Have you ever read the next verse....

Romans 6:15 What then? should we continue to sin that grace may abound? God forbid.

And what is sin 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the law.

So we are not under the law ,but we should keep it out of love because we are saved by grace...to keep on sinning after the knowledge of truth is dangerous..

Heb 10:26 says For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of truththere remaineth no more sacrificefor sins!!!!!!

so yes I am saved by grace now I will do all that is pleasing in his sight because I love him, and wont break his 4th commandment that was given at creation in Gen.2:3 before there ever was a Jew or Gentile

holo · Mar 25, 2005

I see it like this:
Swedish laws are probably good. In fact, they might be the best laws in the world ever. But that doesn't really concern me, because I'm not swedish and never have been. I live in Norway and must adhere to norwegian laws.

God set us over into His Kingdom. In His Kingdom earthly rules don't apply, only love does (I know I'm simplifying it, but in a way it is extremely simple too).

I do good only because God is in me and gives me the will and power to do so, I don't have to go by rules written either in my heart or on stone tablets. His Spirit guides me. For example, in certain situations I might not eat cow meat, if it should offend my brother. But I don't need a law to tell me that, I only need love. In fact, when I set up rules for myself, even good ones like the ten commandments, I only end up breaking them. It's a curious fact that I do tend to live up to a whole lot of commandments and rules as long as I don't try. Paul said sin takes advantage of the commandment. Forbidden things tempt us.

Another, pretty childish, way to put it:

In traffic, we need rules and regulations. Why? Because some people just don't know their own best. Most of us drive on the right side of the road because we don't want to die or risk others' lives, not because the law tells us to. The difference between me and an unbeliever is that I have the driving teacher living inside me. I let Him do the driving, I might as well take the passenger seat. Those who haven't got the best driver in the world living inside them, may need a set of rules to get it right.

It may sound like I'm just playing with words and definitions, but I promise you there's a whole new world of freedom waiting for you if you're trapped in trying to keep some moral or religious law (no matter how good it is in and of itself). I very very rarely meet a christian who's not slaving under some law to some extent. For my own part it became such a burden, such a prison that I regretted ever hearing about God and finally just gave up being a christian. And lo and behold! That's the day I became free like I never knew I could be. Because I realised there's nothing I can do anyway. If I keep one commandment, I'll break another. Now it's more like God is building the house, as one psalm says. Therefore it will stand. I can take no credit for it (but on the other hand I've got nothing to be ashamed of either).

God can't do too much as long as we insist on doing it ourselves. That's true for both good and bad works.

Christians need to realise they're not sinners, there simply is no condemnation for us. We are born of God Himself and cannot sin. You'll never be free of sin in your flesh as long as you consider yourself a sinner. When we give up, that's when God gets a chance to do what He does best.

Let CHRIST live in you. Lay down your burdens. Stop trying, you'll never make it. But He will. In fact, He already has.

It is finished. Grasp it. Trust it.

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