Commandments for Gentiles?

yedida said:

I was just quoting your exact words that said,

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If you had any concern for quoting "exact words", you would have quoted from earlier - or kept up with other conversations where nothing was ever said remotely close to how you choose to view it. Anyone doing a basic search in the Search Engine can verify on the issue of where I've consistently noted that the apostles are trustworthy due to being in line with what Yeshua said - and that has been noted before in every instance where there was anything close to anti-Paul bashing (some quick examples being here #143 and here in #1). Had you stopped and asked "Did you mean that you felt the apostles are whom Christ must agree with ? Or did you mean that the apostles must agree with Christ?", there would be no issue - as it's proper when you don't understand something to ask qualifying questions instead of assuming. However (and not surprisingly based on record/history), you took a phrase out of context - and then ran with it in assuming the worse without any other consideration...best expressed by your "Oh my..." commentary and then ignoring when others explained again what they made clear.

Sorry..but if you cannot do something basic in understanding what others said in the context they said it in, IMHO, it comes off as a struggle to listen properly in the least - and an attempt at being petty with creating issues out of nothing in the worse.

and I quote again by c/p "...as his words are directly in line with what the apostles, from Peter to Paul noted...."

You did indeed switch it around, and said that we obey Yeshua because His words line up with what Peter and Paul and other apostles say. Can you not own

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As said before, IMHO, it'd probably benefit you more if you sought listen more BEFORE responding to something in a manner than isn't representative of the original statement....for what you write may've been what you heard - but it's far from what was actually said. Filters we have make a big difference in how others interpret things - and for many, if/when they have no issues with people, it's not a problem for them to take time to either clarify, consider varying factors or give benefit of a doubt - but that doesn't generallly happen when it's been shown there's an issue others have with other.

The context was one where another said they rather heed the words of Yeshua above the apostles - specifically as it concerns Yeshua, faith in Him/His Finished Work and actions that come based on us first being justified by His grace and believing in HIM. For sequence of events:
For anyone studying the sequence of events - most of the responses I made to the poster were in regards to comments made on the issue of obediance/actions - with comments said in direct response to things I noted to you when it came to not understanding what others had pointed out (as seen here in #140 #142 #143 #144 #145 #146 ) - and you agreed with the individual who made commentary on the issue of Yeshua not pointing to Himself as the focus. The response given - when the individual claimed He'd look to Yeshua before the apostles - was that it is a good thing to see that since His Words are in line with the apostles. That is an issue of CONFIRMATION - and one of noting that others wishing to see what Yeshua said directly will still get what the Apostles noted...should there be attempt to divorce themselves from His Sent Ones because of how they deem them untrustworthy.

Yeshua takes precedence - and His servants, who are in line with His words, can be trusted. Others wrangling over that are no different (IMHO) than the folks saying "Homosexuality was not mentioned by Yeshua so I'll go with them over the Apostle Paul in Romans 1 or I Corinthians 5-6!!" - and not really seeing how they already support what Paul/the other apostles noted since what the apostles noted was in line with the Torah (just as Yeshua was in line with it in His views on Marriage - discussed here in #73 ). His servants line up with the Holy One of Israel whom they were meant to Serve - and thus, no one can really escape consistency between the apostles and the CHIEF Shepherd/Apostle (I Peter 5, John 10, etc.).

Nonetheless, if you're unable (or unwilling) to deal with what's said in the context it was said in, I'm not really concerned since others have noted the same and it was easily understandable (Proverbs 14:6). Some things are easier to understand for certain people than others and some things take time to get.

Avodat said:

Let's not fool ourselves - no one can be truly objective about anything. We all read The Book with our own baggage colouring what we understand it to say at any given point. If we knew, and understood, The Book as well as half of those on here think they do, there wouldn't be debate about anything. As it is, we do not, we all continue to learn whether we are academics or not; no sensible person would ever suggest that learning ends with a few letters before your name, after (or both), whatever they may be. However, logic tells us that those who have devoted many years to studying the Word probably do have a good start on those who haven't, provided they, in turn, have learned from reputable teachers / academic institutions.

For some reason I cannot understand many people on here look in awe and wonder at anyone who has 'Dr' or 'Professor' in front of their name - mostly from Universities that are hardly known in the world rating of such places of learning. Provided they have posted something on the internet somewhere and may have written a book that has been published by an unknown publisher, they must be the epitomy of academic achievement, to be wheeeled out as the final word on any given part of Scripture. G_d isn't permitted to disagree with them!

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Speak it out, bro!!

Avodat said:

Let's not fool ourselves - no one can be truly objective about anything. We all read The Book with our own baggage colouring what we understand it to say at any given point. If we knew, and understood, The Book as well as half of those on here think they do, there wouldn't be debate about anything. As it is, we do not, we all continue to learn whether we are academics or not; no sensible person would ever suggest that learning ends with a few letters before your name, after (or both), whatever they may be. However, logic tells us that those who have devoted many years to studying the Word probably do have a good start on those who haven't, provided they, in turn, have learned from reputable teachers / academic institutions.

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Amen...

yedida said:

Isn't that a little bit reversed? HIS words line up with Peter, Paul, therefore, we obey what He said? Oh my....

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mishkan said:

I'm having this very discussion in a FB group right now. I am saying that we should read The Book from the beginning to the end in order to get a proper grasp on what is said, in its context and relevant to who knows what first.

Reading later statements, loading them with whatever interpretations we like, and then shoe-horning that understanding into the earlier texts... is a completely invalid technique for properly understanding a collection of historical writings like the Bible.

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I agree. Many times when reading the bible from the beginning or "genesis" will explain what occurs later in the bible. Did Eve really believe that she would die, if she ate the forbidden fruit? The serpent convinced her that she would not die. If Adam was allowed; he would have stretched forth his hand and partook of the tree of life so that he may live forever. However, Adam was told that he would die if he disobeyed, the wages of sin is still death. If Adam would have not died, this would cause G-D to become a liar. In short we must have faith in G-D so that we will believe what he tells us, in doing so we may properly keep his commandments.

Avodat said:

Let's not fool ourselves - no one can be truly objective about anything. We all read The Book with our own baggage colouring what we understand it to say at any given point. If we knew, and understood, The Book as well as half of those on here think they do, there wouldn't be debate about anything. As it is, we do not, we all continue to learn whether we are academics or not; no sensible person would ever suggest that learning ends with a few letters before your name, after (or both), whatever they may be. However, logic tells us that those who have devoted many years to studying the Word probably do have a good start on those who haven't, provided they, in turn, have learned from reputable teachers / academic institutions.

For some reason I cannot understand many people on here look in awe and wonder at anyone who has 'Dr' or 'Professor' in front of their name - mostly from Universities that are hardly known in the world rating of such places of learning. Provided they have posted something on the internet somewhere and may have written a book that has been published by an unknown publisher, they must be the epitomy of academic achievement, to be wheeeled out as the final word on any given part of Scripture. G_d isn't permitted to disagree with them!

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You will find that many of these scholars today do not refer to genesis as their source. Genesis is the "origin" or source of the entire bible. They do not properly explain how the book of genesis relates to revelation; but they seek to intepret a book like revelation that is full of imagery.

mercy1061 said:

You will find that many of these scholars today do not refer to genesis as their source. Genesis is the "origin" or source of the entire bible. They do not properly explain how the book of genesis relates to revelation; but they seek to intepret a book like revelation that is full of imagery.

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You obviously relate to, or read, very doubtful sources! There are many sound academics out there if you look for them -find out where their qualifications come from and how that Institution is rated internationally. That will give you a good idea of how well trained they are.

Very few people, sadly, attempt to do any exegesis on Revelation - it is unlikely that you will come across many sound analyses of that book, beyond Chapter 3! I am therefore not in the least surprised that you find little by way of any connection between the first and last parts of The Book. That is not a good means of measuring a person's academic ability - Revelation is renowned as the most difficult of books.

Look at the list in the sticky at the head of these fora where many good books and authors can be found about MJism. There are a few academics on here, by the way.

Avodat said:

You obviously relate to, or read, very doubtful sources! There are many sound academics out there if you look for them -find out where their qualifications come from and how that Institution is rated internationally. That will give you a good idea of how well trained they are.

Very few people, sadly, attempt to do any exegesis on Revelation - it is unlikely that you will come across many sound analyses of that book, beyond Chapter 3! I am therefore not in the least surprised that you find little by way of any connection between the first and last parts of The Book. That is not a good means of measuring a person's academic ability - Revelation is renowned as the most difficult of books.

Look at the list in the sticky at the head of these fora where many good books and authors can be found about MJism. There are a few academics on here, by the way.

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But you're well aware of the fact that academia doesn't teach MJ. It is the teacher of most of the leaders out there in Christianity. And 98% of those leaders are not like you Avodat, not MJs.

Avodat said:

There are many sound academics out there if you look for them -find out where their qualifications come from and how that Institution is rated internationally. That will give you a good idea of how well trained they are.

Very few people, sadly, attempt to do any exegesis on Revelation - it is unlikely that you will come across many sound analyses of that book, beyond Chapter 3! I am therefore not in the least surprised that you find little by way of any connection between the first and last parts of The Book. That is not a good means of measuring a person's academic ability - Revelation is renowned as the most difficult of books.

Look at the list in the sticky at the head of these fora where many good books and authors can be found about MJism. There are a few academics on here, by the way.

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Good advice

I was recently reminded how academia works. It was sadly much like government works. Then I was reminded how YHVH works and I felt a little better.

Avodat said:

Revelation is renowned as the most difficult of books.
.

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It's a very fascinating read

yedida said:

But you're well aware of the fact that academia doesn't teach MJ. It is the teacher of most of the leaders out there in Christianity. And 98% of those leaders are not like you Avodat, not MJs.

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Certainly does. There are a number of good Colleges / Universities in the world that teach MJism. However, the problem is not that the teaching is not available from sound Universities and Colleges it is that there are not enough people wanting the teaching. There are plenty of good teachers of MJism who work in local congregations rather than in Colleges because there isn't the demand from people for the courses. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I was invited, some 15 or so years ago, to write a descriptor course on it for a UK teaching College - the plug was pulled because the Senatus found that not enough students would sign up for the course! There are a number of top Universities running courses on Christian / Jewish relations or on Jewish studies, which can easily accomodate MJism, but the take up is usually just 2 or 3 people a year at 2nd degree level and they are therefore under threat. At first degree level, Ed Kessler in the UK has made in-roads into Cambridge University and his courses are now available to all students training for ministry in the Cambridge Federation of Theological Colleges; he offers courses on Jewish/Christian relationships up to PhD. This is what we need to see happening on a wider scale and not just for theology students, as good as that is.

It's out there - we just need MJism people to ask for the courses and then the Colleges & Universities will offer them. You can get degrees in just about anything nowadays - golf course management for example! How many people could possibly be employed in managing a golf course because they have a degree in it! So degrees can be made available if the need is seen to be there. If the need is there modules could also be taken without locking into a degree course.

Easy G (G²);62137333 said:

It's a very fascinating read

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I agree, but all the apocalyptic parts of The Book are very difficult to dig into and come up with sensible answers that will fit with all the other parts of The Book. If we could work them out with any certainty we would discover when the end would arrive - something we are not permitted to know - so it is just as well we can't work it out with any real confidence in our findings.

Mazock said:

Some claim that the Noahide laws defined in Gen 9 are for everyone.

Here's my opinion on the subject.

As a Gentile Christian, I want to please God with all of my heart. God has told us what pleases Him in the Torah. All 613 commandments are what He's instructed His people is appropriate behaviour.

Although I'm not Jewish, I want to be in his will. Any attempt at finding some loophole is really the flesh trying to justify NOT following the Lord's commandments.

And although there ARE 613 commandments, only about 350 apply to you. A lot of the commandments are intended for the priesthood, the temple, or govenment and how to wage war. The sacrificial Laws must be performed by the priesthood, and Yeshua is our high priest.

Of those 350, several are agricultural, several are intended for women, and several are for dealing with lepers.

Do I fail to live up to those commandments? Yes. But my SALVATION is NOT works based. I try to live up to God's expectations, because I love God.

Yeshua is my SALVATION.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome - 1 John 5:3

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I agree with you. Things have changed because they broke the covenant laws.

Jeremiah 31

New International Version (NIV)

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Deuteronomy 31:26
Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The commandments were placed inside the Ark. The Mosaic laws of the festivals and priesthood were placed on the side of the Ark.

Hosea 2:11
I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed feasts.

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

CherubRam said:

I agree with you. Things have changed because they broke the covenant laws.

Jeremiah 31

New International Version (NIV)

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Deuteronomy 31:26
Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The commandments were placed inside the Ark. The Mosaic laws of the festivals and priesthood were placed on the side of the Ark.

Hosea 2:11
I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed feasts.

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

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and...what is your point?

As long as we keep studying Revelation, its mystery will be revealed. When its time comes, it will no longer be some far off or out there, it will identifiable and verifiable.

CherubRam said:

I agree with you. Things have changed because they broke the covenant laws.

Jeremiah 31

New International Version (NIV)

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors

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Avodat said:

and...what is your point?

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Or, to put a bit finer point to it... What do you believe a Jewish/Israeli covenant has to do with Gentile religion?

mishkan said:

Or, to put a bit finer point to it... What do you believe a Jewish/Israeli covenant has to do with Gentile religion?

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Looks a bit RT to me - hence my question.

Avodat said:

Looks a bit RT to me - hence my question.

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Well... of course. That's why I wanted to come at the topic from a slightly different angle. Whenever people start talking about "changes in the covenant" because "Jews broke the law", that is a signal to me that there is a presumption of supercessionism. Almost always, buried somewhere in the rhetoric, is the premise, "Israel gets the curses, and Christians get the blessings".

Avodat said:

I agree, but all the apocalyptic parts of The Book are very difficult to dig into and come up with sensible answers that will fit with all the other parts of The Book.

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I think where many are concerned is that any discussion with Revelation must be consistent with understandings of how the various apsects of Jewish culture interpreted things. Many read the book, for example, with a Futurist mindset in the assumption that the Jews were solely for that ideology - despite the fact that many (notably the Essenes) had something similar to a Preterist mindset while others had a combination of a Futurist/Preterist ideology ( more shared before here and here in #49/ #118 ) and others had views not associated with either. Some even felt the Book of Revelation was not to be accepted as a part of the cannon in the early centuries of the Church.

Apocalyptic literature is fun to study - and within good boundaries, much of it can be easy to understand. But to approach it as many do in the mindset of formula and thinking it all HAS to be easily understandable in order to read it can be off, IMHO.

If we could work them out with any certainty we would discover when the end would arrive - something we are not permitted to know - so it is just as well we can't work it out with any real confidence in our findings.

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As another Messianic Jew noted best, theology is really our best guess...and on many things, no one will know for certain till we all square away on Judgement Day and get the full picture. The concept in Revelation that I think all can agree to is that it has themes consistent with the message of Christ (confirmed by His Apostles/Sent Ones) when noting that Christ ultimately WINS - He was victorious in His first coming and will be victorious in His Second. He was the True/Risen King, Still is Presently and will always be in the future - and we can be confident in Him.

Trying to make roadmaps out of how things will go down as many often do- from Hal Lindsey to Tim LaHaye of the "Left Behind Series" to those within the Dominionist/"Kingdom Now!!" of Mike Bickle and others - is problematic when there is a failure to keep the MAIN THING the Main thing - Yeshua/preaching His message to the world.