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That's a good songOne of my favorite songs is 'Jew and Gentile, One in Messiah'.
The leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees is their doctrine or teaching. The leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees caused the Jews in Yeshua's day to depart from the Torah. Anytime an Isrealite departs from Torah he/she becomes a goy spriritually because his/her heart becomes uncircumcised. Modern Judaism is still full of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. I will leave it up to you to draw your own conclusion about the Jewish people who do not believe in Yeshua.
So to summarize what I understand you to be saying, if you are a believer in Yeshua, you are no longer a Gentile. All believers are grafted in Israelites. So, there is no such thing as a Gentile believer in Yeshua.
Do I have that right?
Yes, you have that right.
And what of the Jewish people who do not believe? Do you believe they are still children of Israel or are they now Gentiles?
As I pondered your question about the Jewish people who do not believe three things came to my mind.
1. In John chapter the Jewish Rabbis of the Pharisee sect said they were the children of Abraham to which Yeshua replied,"You are of your father the devil" John 8:44 (ESV).
2. Yeshua instructed His taught ones to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees" Matthew 16:6 (ESV).
The leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees is their doctrine or teaching. The leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees caused the Jews in Yeshua's day to depart from the Torah. Anytime an Isrealite departs from Torah he/she becomes a goy spriritually because his/her heart becomes uncircumcised. Modern Judaism is still full of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. I will leave it up to you to draw your own conclusion about the Jewish people who do not believe in Yeshua.
3. “For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life….Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of Elohim.” John 3:16&18 (ESV)
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…” Hosea 4:6
Shalom,
David
I can't recall where, now, but there is a reference in the Talmud to G_d regarding the circumcised as un-circumcised in certain situations relating to their conduct in their lifetime.
I can't recall where, now, but there is a reference in the Talmud to G_d regarding the circumcised as un-circumcised in certain situations relating to their conduct in their lifetime.
Yea could be true in the same way Paul uses the phrase. However even in idolatry God still considers the children of Israel, children of Israel.
Marc,
I have to disagree with your analysis.
Specifically, in the time of Noah, the clean vs unclean was only attributed to animal sacrifice, not for food.
Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Prior to that time, humans were vegetarian.
Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. 4 Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
So, not just food from plants, but everything that moves that is alive. That covers all animals, fish, insects and reptiles are food.
The restricted diet was introduced in the Mosaic law, and although there is no reason given for this diet, it serves as a way to keep the children of Israel separated from the surrounding people. So while ritually unclean animals are edible (no validity to the health claims as the purpose), this specific set of commands are simply done because God commanded it, but effectually, it keeps the children of Israel socially separated.
Ok, I do not see non-Jewish as being equivalent to pagan. Especially in light of the prophesies concerning the Gentiles coming to the Messiah in the Tenakh and the NT talking about believing non-Jewish people. Since Gentile/non-Jewish believers are prophesied, non-Jewish believers are a sign of the Messiah.
One of my favorite songs is 'Jew and Gentile, One in Messiah'.
Biblically - and in accordance with what actually happened n Judaism, anyone claiming to serve the Father of Israel (Exodus 4) would have been violating the Laws of the Father of Israel by not obeying the distinctions he plainly set up - laws that were echoed in the Mosaic Code. Deuteronomy 14:21 says that an Israelite may give roadkill (meat found dead) to a resident alien (sojourner) or sell it to a foreigner. Israelites were forbidden to eat such meat, of course - although the logic used by others (i.e "Serving the God of Israel means we're all the same in what we're called to obey!!!" ) would cause the Law of God to be altered. ..and make it sinful for a resident alien or gentile to eat such meat. That was never an ideology present in the text of scripture, of course.Marc,
I have to disagree with your analysis.
Specifically, in the time of Noah, the clean vs unclean was only attributed to animal sacrifice, not for food.
Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Prior to that time, humans were vegetarian.
Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. 4 Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
So, not just food from plants, but everything that moves that is alive. That covers all animals, fish, insects and reptiles are food.
The restricted diet was introduced in the Mosaic law, and although there is no reason given for this diet, it serves as a way to keep the children of Israel separated from the surrounding people. So while ritually unclean animals are edible (no validity to the health claims as the purpose), this specific set of commands are simply done because God commanded it, but effectually, it keeps the children of Israel socially separated.
The closer you get to obeying the purest of the laws of God to better you can understand why God gave those laws.... remember cleanliness is next to godliness..Gxg (G²);62185454 said:Biblically - and in accordance with what actually happened n Judaism, anyone claiming to serve the Father of Israel (Exodus 4) would have been violating the Laws of the Father of Israel by not obeying the distinctions he plainly set up - laws that were echoed in the Mosaic Code. Deuteronomy 14:21 says that an Israelite may give roadkill (meat found dead) to a resident alien (sojourner) or sell it to a foreigner. Israelites were forbidden to eat such meat, of course - although the logic used by others (i.e "Serving the God of Israel means we're all the same in what we're called to obey!!!" ) would cause the Law of God to be altered. ..and make it sinful for a resident alien or gentile to eat such meat. That was never an ideology present in the text of scripture, of course.
With Deuteronomy 14:21, it could just be that the Israelites were called to be a priestly people and to walk in certain extra levels of stringency with regard to certain symbolic purity laws. And perhaps those who study Torah should learn the purpose and rationale of the purity laws. Perhaps just as a raisin or glass of wine is not impure, though it is forbidden to one under a Nazirite vow, meat found dead is forbidden to Israelites but not to gentiles. The Lord God permitted Noah to eat all living things. Its there in Genesis 9 and it was never repealed. Moreover, God never enforced the dietary laws of Leviticus 11 on gentiles and that thought has been shared repeatedly throughout Judaism - especially by the School of Hiliel. For Noah himself was allowed to eat foods others claim cannot be eaten today (be it pork or shrimp) - but Israelites were not. Were not all the same. Sadly, even if/when people realize this about Noah, they who dont want to believe it and will perform all manner of scriptural gymnastics to deny what is plain. But not only are their arguments about clean and unclean animals in Noahs time simplistic, but they also cannot explain Deuteronomy 14:21.
If we claim to want to serve the God of Israel, we need to not alter what he said to fit an image of Him he never supported. Otherwise, no matter how much anyone claims to want God's laws, they're simply serving an idol since they refuse to accept what God has said - especially as it concerned distinction. Numbers 15:16 says, One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you. And so does Exodus 12:49. But that does not mean were all the same. People regularly try to cite these verses repeatedly without any seeming awareness of the context. In example, read Exodus 12:43 and 48. Gentiles are not permitted to eat the Passover sacrifice.
So what does one law mean, then? It means with regard to certain things, the law is the same in the land, but not with regard to all things. In Numbers 15 the one law concerns the offering of sacrifices. Gentiles offer sacrifices just as Israelites. In Exodus 12 the meaning is that there is to be no discrimination. If a gentile wishes to be circumcised and keep Passover with Israel (which would effectively make him an Israelite once he was circumcised), he shall not be prevented from doing so. But he may not eat the Passover sacrifice if uncircumcised (and such circumcision would need to be performed with the intent of drawing near to the people of Israel). Neither may an uncircumcised Israelite eat of it. There is to be one law regarding this matter for Jew and gentile.
And His commands are good so there should be contentment.
And the closer you get to understanding God's Laws (as taught in Judaism), the more one is faithful in being consistent with what He notedThe closer you get to obeying the purest of the laws of God to better you can understand why God gave those laws.... remember cleanliness is next to godliness..
What is the kingdom of God if not the lifestyle advocated in thought and deed by the Mosaic Code. Stoning is a judgment issue which will be handled by Yeshua when the time comes... Pay attention.. Paul stated that God has put sentencing and carrying out the sentence in His Hands.
Gxg (G²);61739951 said:Lifestyle according to the Kingdom is outlined by what Yeshua walked out alongside his apostles and the early believers....and it NEVER had anything remotely to do with following all aspects of Mosaic code since they often differed greatly from that, including the ways Levites were treated and how they saw life in the New Covenant - with what occurred with Barnabas the Levite being one of the best examples as well as what occurred with Paul/others when it came to sacrifical offerings (more shared here and here ). Stoning was still done by other non-believing Jews, but the early Jewish body of believers didn't advocate such in light of what Christ did - and the same was the case with the sacrificies outlined in the Mosaic code as well when it came to atonement/forgiveness.
Thus, one must better pay attention when trying to talk on others needing to follow the Mosaic code and yet willignly ignoring where they don't come close to walking that out...and have to make Christ fit a narrative he never supported. The same Paul who noted God has all things in His hands also noted the issue of grace found in the Lord/not seeking to be justified by observance to the Law (or thinking that all aspects of Mosaic were to be walked in forever) when it came to the Law multiple times - and that was also said by other apostles as well, James 2:8 being a prominent example amongst many. This can also be seen when it comes to adultery, as the Law of Mosaic Code says an adulterer would need to be put to death ( Leviticus 20:10 ) - bu Christ noted in Matthew 5 that looking at a woman with lust is adultery of the heart..thus stepping things up and noting that the intention was just as bad as the action. Thus, is it the "spirit of the Law" to go about killing all who struggle with lust or who've had adulterous thoughts? Of course not...but noting a change in application of how the Law applied is a part of understanding how Christ operated.
And in talking on how Paul stated that God has put that all in His Hands, there has been neither context or history on the issue - nor has there been addressment on the issue of other things one never do as it concerns the Mosaic if claiming it still must stand ..with the ceremonial laws of cleanliness being one of the most prominent as it concerns what was noted in Leviticus 13 and the need of showing onself to a priest in order to truly fulfill Mosaic law as God said.
Reminded of one lady who went real deep into "Torah Observance" and discovered the laws of niddah [women's monthly] ..with her being horrified that for all her life she had been contaminating 1000s of toiletsI know it's funny today, but back then, it was a SERIOUS admonition for her and she was beside herself in how to carry out the "staying separate".. She had recently been divorced; her daughter and son-in-law moved in with her and she only had one bathroom. She was distraught, for real and would lay awake at night trying to figure out how to remain separate and even considered buying a port-a-potty so she wouldn't cause anyone else to be tamei.
When one is in niddah, one must separate themselves from all others - as the Mosaic Law states: separate quarters. One cannot even touch a woman that is in niddah. So having one bathroom was a problem, according to the ML (Mosaic Law). Of course that is just one facet of niddah. She could not live in separate quarters. She would have to live away from her home so as not to touch anyone or anything that they might touch. When one is unclean, anything that touches them becomes unclean [tamei].
To consider the dynamic that bugs may've crawled on the toilet seats (be it roaches, mites or spiders), just as they may do so in rooms we sleep in....for anyone remotely aware of the kind of things actually present in the room when you sleep at night, it makes you consider if anyone has ever made it throughout the day without becoming unclean at some point---and who really is in line with ALL of the commands in Torah for becoming clean if wishing to advocate the ceremonial laws for cleanliness. The woman who was seeking to remain clean beat herself up repeatedly for the ways she felt like she was breaking the ceremonial law for cleanliness and feeling that God was disappointed in her.
Of course, the problem is that she could never find an "out" for not obeying this commandment anywhere in the Bible. ..and in her view, that made her in rebellion to God's "holy" Law ....and in hindsight, she realized where she ignored the example of Yeshua who worked with others such as the woman with the issue of blood. Jesus could touch a woman with a discharge of blood (Mark 5:25-34, Matthew 9:20) who was ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:25-28) and not permitted to enter the temple section reserved for women nor was she permitted to be in public without making people aware that she was unclean. Her hemorrhaging would have cut her off from many social and religiopus relationships. And in seeing Jesus, she was desperate. When she touched Jesus, she technically rendered him ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:19-23), but Jesus is greater than ANY Purity Laws...for he makes her clean by HIS Power instead of becoming unclean Himself (Mark 1:41, Mark 5:41). Jesus made clear to the woman that her faith in Him made here both physically and spiritually healed....and the woman's faith in Jesus for physical healing at the same time becamse faith in him for salvation from sin.
If it was possible for her despite being in the times she was, how odd it is when people in our times act as if Jesus somehow has LESS power to make one clean unless they operate within the bounds of an OT Law that cannot be fulfilled anyhow due to their not being an Aaronic Priesthood set up/all of the civil aspects of the Law in place for our time. Jesus is truly superior....and as it stands, its interesting to see how that often played out in his own life. In Matthew 8:2-4, where he healed a leper, its interesting to see how when Jesus touched him he was healed and Jesus did NOT become unclean. That's striking, in light of how the OT provided specific guidelines for the examination and treatment of those with a variety of skin diseases, generally called leprosy, many of which were highly contagious (Leviticus 13-14)----for not only was leprosy a disease, but it made the leper as well as anyone who touched him ceremonially unclean (Lev 13:45-46, Numbers 5:2-4, etc). Jesus was far stronger than any of that.
Or one cannot simply quote the laws when it comes to Mosaic Law and yet ignore them when it comes to remaining clean....as they were taken altogether for the most part....and even if trying to seperate oneself when becoming unclean, again, you'd still need a LEVITICAL priest to check you out. To try doing so on your own was not allowed within the Torah....and thus, even the attempt at trying to remain clean by seperation is inconsistent with what was actually commanded. People do not have permission to make it out as if Yeshua did things he never lived out....and ignore where He did things that people say he'd never do.
Born again really helps with the gifts of understanding, wisdom, eyes that see, and ears that hear on this... not the old ways of traditional Judaism .. but the new ways in Yeshua... now that is MJ with the lights on.Gxg (G²);62185544 said:And the closer you get to understanding God's Laws (as taught in Judaism), the more one is faithful in being consistent with what He notedEspecially as it concerns to how he works uniquely with Gentiles and has never pushed them to be akin to Israel for acceptance - nor claimed Israel was better than them simply because of distinction. Cleanliness is found in Yeshua alone - and if you could get apart from Him, you'd not need Him or His example in working with unclean people, touching them and purifying Them through HIS power to make a point. The same goes for his associating with the unclean tax-collectors and 'sinners' of His day - a thought which early Messianic Jews always noted to be radical because it went against their ideology (before serving Yeshua) of what it meant to be clean/godly in the sight of the Lord.
There is no obediance to anything which one deems to be the purest of God's Laws when one doesn't not follow the example of Yeshua - the Author of it.
Judaism is what Yeshua was born in - and the system he taught in. One cannot claim to serve a Jewish Messiah and fail to understand the Jewish context He lived in/how things were understood - and that was well understood amongst those disciples born again during His era..consistent with much of what was noted in traditional Judaism since Yeshua didn't come to make a new religion. You can understand properly when dealing with them in the context they lived in - and seeing how they lined up directly with the school of Hillel/his thoughts on Gentiles (as noted before in #74 / #162), which isn't surprising since he was a Pharisee and Yeshua often identified with that camp, it's no issue seeing where much of what Yeshua taught wasn't really new as much as retold.Born again really helps with the gifts of understanding, wisdom, eyes that see, and ears that hear on this... not the old ways of traditional Judaism but the new ways in Yeshua... now that is MJ with the lights on.
agreed... however, the issue is the dusting off that which is traditional and not within Rabbi Yeshua's character or teachings.... We are all very thankful for the many Messianic Jews who have taken the time to do just that, and were also blessed with cleaning house of both Christian and Judaism traditional views that are not in harmony with the very spirit and intent of God to bring all His people home... all the way back home to the Garden of Eden.. as one people in Him.Gxg (G²);62185576 said:Judaism is what Yeshua was born in - and the system he taught in. One cannot claim to serve a Jewish Messiah and fail to understand the Jewish context He lived in/how things were understood - and that was well understood amongst those disciples born again during His era..consistent with much of what was noted in traditional Judaism since Yeshua didn't come to make a new religion. You can understand properly when dealing with them in the context they lived in - and seeing how they lined up directly with the school of Hillel/his thoughts on Gentiles (as noted before in #74 / #162), which isn't surprising since he was a Pharisee and Yeshua often identified with that camp, it's no issue seeing where much of what Yeshua taught wasn't really new as much as retold.
Understanding the background of the Hebraic he came from is paramount. Otherwise, one ends up with nothing different than what's seen in Mormonism where anything is brought up in the name of being "Born Again/understanding it and not needing the Jewish context" - and having no idea what is created in the process or how far it is from YeshuaIt's no different here - as that's an issue of intellectual honesty/consistency with history within MJism which is able to help others see things as they were...not as they'd wish it to be - and therefore be a good witness for Yeshua as He desired Thankful for the many Messianic Jews who've taken time to do just that
That was never an issue in question - and one of the reasons why people have often noted the need to examine His character/how He interpreted things. Any type of tradition must be examined in light of how He lived/what He called for and what he showed support for - for that is the type of Messianic Judaism/Christianity that matters.agreed... however, the issue is the dusting off that which is traditional and not within Rabbi Yeshua's character or teachings.... .
One people in Him is found solely in the Gospel Yeshua preached - and the Life He lived. As said before, there's no further place like Home than the redeemption/purification that comes by the BLOOD of Yeshua - and restoring us to the Garden of Eden/how He intended man to live all starts/ends there in having reconcilliation with the Lord.We are all very thankful for the many Messianic Jews who have taken the time to do just that, and were also blessed with cleaning house of both Christian and Judaism traditional views that are not in harmony with the very spirit and intent of God to bring all His people home... all the way back home to the Garden of Eden.. as one people in Him
That is a good place to start...Gxg (G²);62185668 said:That was never an issue in question - and one of the reasons why people have often noted the need to examine His character/how He interpreted things. Any type of tradition must be examined in light of how He lived/what He called for and what he showed support for - for that is the type of Messianic Judaism/Christianity that matters.
It is also the place to end - as the believers noted historicallyThat is a good place to start...
If you think God stops there... He has an infinite depth to reveal that would be wonderous to behold.Gxg (G²);62185679 said:It is also the place to end - as the believers noted historicallyThere will never be a going away from being a believer or a bearer of Christ (Christian - I Peter 4) nor is there a going away from being a disciple. We will always be on that path so long as we serve the Messiah and that is how he always intended it.
Obviously, he always has an infinite depth of learning/understanding (if being preachy) to share that will always go on for eternity ( Isaiah 64:3-5 /Isaiah 64 )If you think God stops there... He has an infinite depth to reveal that would be wonderous to behold.
IT will take eternity to just begin to get a glimpse how vast that is.
Good... now we are getting somewhere... hate to have gridlock at the gateGxg (G²);62187283 said:...,<snip>..Nonetheless, you will not gain that apart from being His disciple/representing Him and bearing the name of Christ. You must be on the path and remain a disciple/believer/Christian (Christ bearer - 1 Peter 4:15-17/ Peter 4 ) - no more than being a foreigner in another land, gaining all of the resources found in a country and exploring it to the fullness means one does not need to have their passport at all times to do so. Discipleship leads to learning and growth - and is the way we access things forever - and as long as we serve the Lord (for eternity), we'll always be just that. Disiples/studentsThere is no escaping that - nor does realizing that simple reality mean that God has "stopped" at any point with instruction/learning.
It's been said for years, actually. And noted by dozens of others (and mentioned in dialouge) - if paying attentionGood... now we are getting somewhere ...,<snip>..
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