Commandments for Gentiles?

mercy1061 · Jan 8, 2013

Avodat said:
A large number who teach such programmes do just that, though you didn't include that fact. You simply highlighted the bit that says they do not do what they teach. That is scandalous.

I quoted Yeshua's words toward the pharisees to show how important "practice" is nothing more. I was not using this verse as an indictment against colleges/universities; apparently you hear my words as such. Practice is important to truly understanding the academic curriclum; this is why Yeshua understood more than the pharisees. The pharisees could have had a deeper knowledge of scripture if they only lifted a finger to help the people; put the Torah into practice. Most experienced teachers will tell you that going to college to learn how to become a teacher is much different than "practicing" as a successful teacher in a real inner city classroom. I lift my finger toward my students so they will learn to listen while I am teaching the class.

Matt 23:4
They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

yedida · Jan 8, 2013

mercy1061 said:
I quoted Yeshua's words toward the pharisees to show how important "practice" is nothing more. I was not using this verse as an indictment against colleges/universities; apparently you hear my words as such. Practice is important to truly understanding the academic curriclum; this is why Yeshua understood more than the pharisees. The pharisees could have had a deeper knowledge of scripture if they only lifted a finger to help the people; put the Torah into practice. Most experienced teachers will tell you that going to college to learn how to become a teacher is much different than "practicing" as a successful teacher in a real inner city classroom. I lift my finger toward my students so they will learn to listen while I am teaching the class.

Matt 23:4
They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Oh my, another confusion. Not lifting a finger to help someone is quite different from lifting a finger to shush so one can learn to listen. Very different things. The latter remains a part of the former if all they do is speak.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 8, 2013

Avodat said:
A large number who teach such programmes do just that,. .

Indeed - and the programs are not hidden for anyone who takes the time at researching them.

mrasell · Jan 11, 2013

mrs94 said:
I was just curious as to what you guys know about this separation and why certain commandments would NOT apply to Gentiles like Feasts and Dietary Law. It doesn't make sense to me that if eating a certain way is bad for Jews, it would not be bad for Gentiles...and, the same with celebrating the Feasts.

I think your right, in that there should be one all for all. The covenant made with Israel was based on the 10 Commandments, and all these principles are found before Moses in the book of Genesis, and Abraham kept God's laws (Gen. 26:5).

The Sabbath and the dietary laws existed before Moses, because the unclean distinction existed in the time of Noah. In fact God never gave permission for anyone to eat unclean meat. Noah sent out the dove every seven days, showing he was observing the weekly cycle.

(for more info about the origin of the sabbath, see my book, "Nehemiah the Sabbath Reformer")

Marc

Qnts2 · Jan 11, 2013

mrasell said:
I think your right, in that there should be one all for all. The covenant made with Israel was based on the 10 Commandments, and all these principles are found before Moses in the book of Genesis, and Abraham kept God's laws (Gen. 26:5).

The Sabbath and the dietary laws existed before Moses, because the unclean distinction existed in the time of Noah. In fact God never gave permission for anyone to eat unclean meat. Noah sent out the dove every seven days, showing he was observing the weekly cycle.

(for more info about the origin of the sabbath, see my book, "Nehemiah the Sabbath Reformer")

Marc

Marc,

I have to disagree with your analysis.

Specifically, in the time of Noah, the clean vs unclean was only attributed to animal sacrifice, not for food.

Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Prior to that time, humans were vegetarian.

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. 4 Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

So, not just food from plants, but everything that moves that is alive. That covers all animals, fish, insects and reptiles are food.

The restricted diet was introduced in the Mosaic law, and although there is no reason given for this diet, it serves as a way to keep the children of Israel separated from the surrounding people. So while ritually unclean animals are edible (no validity to the health claims as the purpose), this specific set of commands are simply done because God commanded it, but effectually, it keeps the children of Israel socially separated.

mrasell · Jan 11, 2013

Qnts2 said:
Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. 4 Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

So, not just food from plants, but everything that moves that is alive. That covers all animals, fish, insects and reptiles are food.

That could not be God's intention because some things that move are poisonous for man.

There were laws given to the Patriarchs which are not recorded, for example tithing, animal sacrifices, ritual washings. And Abraham is said to have kept God's laws.

The only thing that indicates what restriction there was is in the unclean and clean rules, which is confirmed by the laws of Moses.

There is also scientific evidence today which shows that unclean meats such as pork are harmful for health. God promised to give the people good health if they kept His commandments. He tried to give them a vegetarian diet with the manna but they craved for meat, so He permitted them but only clean meats.

Marc

mrasell · Jan 11, 2013

Increased meat consumption causes an increase in atherosclerosis, cancer, kidney disorders, osteoporosis and trichinosis and can decrease life expectancy. (Scharffenberg, Problems With Meat (Santa Barbara, CA: Woodbridge Press, 1979), pp. 12-58).

By nature unclean animals do not constitute the best food, many are scavengers or predators; because of their habits they are more apt to carry disease. Studies have shown that "in addition to the moderate amounts of cholesterol found in both port and shellfish, both foods contain a number of toxins and contaminants which are associated with human poisoning." (Winston J. Craig "Pork and Shellfish-How Safe Are They?" Health and Healing 12, No. 1 (1988): 10-12)

Pork is also associated with Trichinosis and Hepatitis E.

The main danger from pork is trichinosis, he said that whatever may be said about meat hygiene in practice it is often by-passed or slip-shod.

A single teaspoon of inadequately cooked pork can contain thousands of these minute worms. Once in the digestive system they develop into adults, gnaw through the intestine and travel via the bloodstream to the muscles where they form cysts.
The worms do not cause their hosts, the pig any problems.

The disease occurs mainly in hogs fed upon garbage containing already infected pork scraps. When eaten the worm lodges in the intestine which tries to get rid of them, but they may not be quick enough to prevent an infestation, they rapidly multiply and strike through the intestinal wall into the blood stream.

Severe trichinosis can cause intense pain and leads to general debility, fever and it is believed an epileptiform type of brain disease; sometimes death ensues. In mild cases the symptoms are occasionally mistaken for typhoid or rheumatism.
Only a complete blood count can be relied upon to detect trichinosis in all cases.

Qnts2 · Jan 11, 2013

mrasell said:
That could not be God's intention because some things that move are poisonous for man.

There were laws given to the Patriarchs which are not recorded, for example tithing, animal sacrifices, ritual washings. And Abraham is said to have kept God's laws.

The only thing that indicates what restriction there was is in the unclean and clean rules, which is confirmed by the laws of Moses.

There is also scientific evidence today which shows that unclean meats such as pork are harmful for health. God promised to give the people good health if they kept His commandments. He tried to give them a vegetarian diet with the manna but they craved for meat, so He permitted them but only clean meats.

Marc

So, your argument is based on assuming what God meant and not what He said.

Your second argument is based on modern science, that God said don't eat pig, and His motivation is that pig is unhealthy to eat, but God doesn't say that in scripture. Science supposedly discovered this in the 1930's-50's so now we know from science why God said that. Wish God had said that mans science will explain Gods reasoning in the future.

Truthfully, I do not buy either argument as I do not view either as substantiated in scripture.

Your argument is based on too many assumptions not found in scripture. As far as anyone keeping any laws, from day one, God gave laws, including to Adam. Adam can be said to have not kept Gods law. But that doesn't mean that Adam failed to keep Kosher, as the Kosher laws had not yet been given, so it is poor reading to say Adam sinned by not keeping Kosher, just as it is poor reading to believe that Abraham, who kept Gods laws did keep Kosher, since God had not yet given the Kosher laws, and scripture simply says Abraham kept Gods laws and not that Abraham kept the Mosaic covenant or kept Kosher.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 11, 2013

mrasell said:
Increased meat consumption causes an increase in atherosclerosis, cancer, kidney disorders, osteoporosis and trichinosis and can decrease life expectancy. (Scharffenberg, Problems With Meat (Santa Barbara, CA: Woodbridge Press, 1979), pp. 12-58).

By nature unclean animals do not constitute the best food, many are scavengers or predators; because of their habits they are more apt to carry disease. Studies have shown that "in addition to the moderate amounts of cholesterol found in both port and shellfish, both foods contain a number of toxins and contaminants which are associated with human poisoning." (Winston J. Craig "Pork and Shellfish-How Safe Are They?" Health and Healing 12, No. 1 (1988): 10-12)

Pork is also associated with Trichinosis and Hepatitis E.

The main danger from pork is trichinosis, he said that whatever may be said about meat hygiene in practice it is often by-passed or slip-shod.

A single teaspoon of inadequately cooked pork can contain thousands of these minute worms. Once in the digestive system they develop into adults, gnaw through the intestine and travel via the bloodstream to the muscles where they form cysts.
The worms do not cause their hosts, the pig any problems.

The disease occurs mainly in hogs fed upon garbage containing already infected pork scraps. When eaten the worm lodges in the intestine which tries to get rid of them, but they may not be quick enough to prevent an infestation, they rapidly multiply and strike through the intestinal wall into the blood stream.

Severe trichinosis can cause intense pain and leads to general debility, fever and it is believed an epileptiform type of brain disease; sometimes death ensues. In mild cases the symptoms are occasionally mistaken for typhoid or rheumatism.
Only a complete blood count can be relied upon to detect trichinosis in all cases.

mrasell said:

That could not be God's intention because some things that move are poisonous for man.

There were laws given to the Patriarchs which are not recorded, for example tithing, animal sacrifices, ritual washings. And Abraham is said to have kept God's laws.

The only thing that indicates what restriction there was is in the unclean and clean rules, which is confirmed by the laws of Moses.

There is also scientific evidence today which shows that unclean meats such as pork are harmful for health. God promised to give the people good health if they kept His commandments. He tried to give them a vegetarian diet with the manna but they craved for meat, so He permitted them but only clean meats.

Marc

Click to expand...

Just giving an FYI - if you're not a Messianic member of the forum, although allowed to ask questions, debating is something the mods asked to not be allowed (more shared here - at the bottom of the page). Just giving you a heads up so you'd not get in trouble..

Gxg (G²) · Jan 11, 2013

Avodat said:
A large number who teach such programmes do just that

If you had a list you'd offer on the issue, which ones would you submit for consideration?

davidbenephraim · Jan 11, 2013

mrs94 said:
I'm still here, lurking...enjoying checking in with you guys and reading posts. I am definitely growing and Adonai is showing me many things. It is absolutely stunning the depth of what He will show you when you are humble and seek His Face.

So, now, I'm curious. I've seen people in various places purpose that there are commandments specific for the Gentiles. Can any of you shed light on this for me? Thanks in advance.

Actually, there are no commandments in the Scriptures for the Gentiles because a Gentile is a person who is not in covenant with Yahweh. The word gentile and its plural form gentiles when rendered in Hebrew become goy (sing.) and goyim (pl.). All of the commandments in the Scriptures are for Israel because we are Elohim's covenant people.

It is true that a person who is a Goy (Gentile) through biological childbirth can become a grafted-in Israelite believer. The Hebrew word gar and its plural form garim is used in the Scriptures to refer to such gratfed-in Israelite believers. The KJV Bible uses the English word sojourner(s) to translate the Hebrew word gar(im).

Some people believe Elohim began to graft the Goyim (Gentiles) into Israel only after the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah. But this is not true. In Exodus 12:37, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are identified as "the sons of Israel" in the NASB. These sons of Israel numbered 600,000 not including the little children among them. In the very next verse, the Torah plainly says that "a mixed multitude also went up with them." The "them" in verse 38 are the sons of Israel. This mixed multitude that also went up with them were garim or grafted-in Israelite believers who were Goyim through biological childbirth but became grafted-in citizens of Israel by the Spirit of adoption.

In order for these Garim to have walked out of Egypt along with the sons of Israel, their men would have had to be circumcised according to the Torah and these Garim would have also had to slaughter a lamb and apply its blood to the doorposts and lintels of their homes. In other words, these Garim had to come into the same covenant as the sons of Israel to be saved along with them.

Later when Yahweh gave Moses the Torah Commandments at Sinai & Horeb, Yahweh established one Torah and one commandment for both the sons of Israel and the Garim. As it is written, One Torah and one ordinance shall be both for you, and for the grafted-in Israelite believer that assembles with you Numbers 15:16 (JPS).

Once a Goy (Gentile) becomes a Gar (grafted-in Israelite), he/she is a citizen of the Commonwealth of Israel with the same rights and benefits of the covenants of promise as anyone who is born a son of Israel through biological childbirth. I was born a goy through biological childbirth but once I turned to Yeshua HaMashiach as my Messiah and Savior and once I accepted Torah into my life I became a Gar (i.e. a grafted-in citizen of the Commonwealth of Israel) adopted into Yah's family by the Spirit of adoption whereby I can now cry Abba, Father.

As it is written, Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles through biological chilbirth, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from the Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without Elohim in the world. But now in the Messiah Yeshua you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.

Ephesians 2:11-13 (ESV)

As I bring this post to a close, I want to remind you that Uriah the husband of Bathsheba (with whom King David committed adultery) was a Hittite through biological chilbirth who became a Gar or grafted-in citizen of Israel otherwise he could not have served in King David's army. (see 2 Samuel chapter 11)

So if you were born a Gentile through biological chilbirth but you are now a believer in Yeshua HaMashisach you are an Israelite grafted-in by the Spirit of adoption and the Torah is for you.

Shalom,
David

Qnts2 · Jan 11, 2013

davidbenephraim said:
Actually, there are no commandments in the Scriptures for the Gentiles because a Gentile is a person who is not in covenant with Yahweh. The word gentile and its plural form gentiles when rendered in Hebrew become goy (sing.) and goyim (pl.). All of the commandments in the Scriptures are for Israel because we are Elohim's covenant people.

It is true that a person who is a Goy (Gentile) through biological childbirth can become a grafted-in Israelite believer. The Hebrew word gar and its plural form garim is used in the Scriptures to refer to such gratfed-in Israelite believers. The KJV Bible uses the English word sojourner(s) to translate the Hebrew word gar(im).

Some people believe Elohim began to graft the Goyim (Gentiles) into Israel only after the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah. But this is not true. In Exodus 12:37, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are identified as "the sons of Israel" in the NASB. These sons of Israel numbered 600,000 not including the little children among them. In the very next verse, the Torah plainly says that "a mixed multitude also went up with them." The "them" in verse 38 are the sons of Israel. This mixed multitude that also went up with them were garim or grafted-in Israelite believers who were Goyim through biological childbirth but became grafted-in citizens of Israel by the Spirit of adoption.

In order for these Garim to have walked out of Egypt along with the sons of Israel, their men would have had to be circumcised according to the Torah and these Garim would have also had to slaughter a lamb and apply its blood to the doorposts and lintels of their homes. In other words, these Garim had to come into the same covenant as the sons of Israel to be saved along with them.

Later when Yahweh gave Moses the Torah Commandments at Sinai & Horeb, Yahweh established one Torah and one commandment for both the sons of Israel and the Garim. As it is written, One Torah and one ordinance shall be both for you, and for the grafted-in Israelite believer that assembles with you Numbers 15:16 (JPS).

Once a Goy (Gentile) becomes a Gar (grafted-in Israelite), he/she is a citizen of the Commonwealth of Israel with the same rights and benefits of the covenants of promise as anyone who is born a son of Israel through biological childbirth. I was born a goy through biological childbirth but once I turned to Yeshua HaMashiach as my Messiah and Savior and once I accepted Torah into my life I became a Gar (i.e. a grafted-in citizen of the Commonwealth of Israel) adopted into Yah's family by the Spirit of adoption whereby I can now cry Abba, Father.

As it is written, Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles through biological chilbirth, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from the Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without Elohim in the world. But now in the Messiah Yeshua you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.

Ephesians 2:11-13 (ESV)

As I bring this post to a close, I want to remind you that Uriah the husband of Bathsheba (with whom King David committed adultery) was a Hittite through biological chilbirth who became a Gar or grafted-in citizen of Israel otherwise he could not have served in King David's army. (see 2 Samuel chapter 11)

So if you were born a Gentile through biological chilbirth but you are now a believer in Yeshua HaMashisach you are an Israelite grafted-in by the Spirit of adoption and the Torah is for you.

Shalom,
David

So to summarize what I understand you to be saying, if you are a believer in Yeshua, you are no longer a Gentile. All believers are grafted in Israelites. So, there is no such thing as a Gentile believer in Yeshua.

Do I have that right?

And what of the Jewish people who do not believe? Do you believe they are still children of Israel or are they now Gentiles?

visionary · Jan 11, 2013

Qnts2 said:
So to summarize what I understand you to be saying, if you are a believer in Yeshua, you are no longer a Gentile. All believers are grafted in Israelites. So, there is no such thing as a Gentile believer in Yeshua.

Do I have that right?

And what of the Jewish people who do not believe? Do you believe they are still children of Israel or are they now Gentiles?

By definition... gentile is a non believer...gen·tile
/ˈjentīl/
Noun A person who is not Jewish.
adjective. pagan
noun. pagan

Qnts2 · Jan 11, 2013

visionary said:
By definition... gentile is a non believer...

I disagree with that.

By definition, a Gentile is a non-Jew. People who are not Jewish can be believers.

Mirriam Webster

Definition of GENTILE

1
often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith;

Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation First Known Use: 14th century

Since the first know use is the 14th century, we need to accept a definition from a dictionary.

In Hebrew, there is no equivalent word. The term Goy, means nation, so to arrive at a translation to the word Gentile, it must clearly mean a nation(s) other then the nation of Israel.

visionary · Jan 11, 2013

Qnts2 said:
I disagree with that.

By definition, a Gentile is a non-Jew. People who are not Jewish can be believers.

Mirriam Webster

Definition of GENTILE

1
often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith;

Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation First Known Use: 14th century

Since the first know use is the 14th century, we need to accept a definition from a dictionary.

In Hebrew, there is no equivalent word. The term Goy, means nation, so to arrive at a translation to the word Gentile, it must clearly mean a nation(s) other then the nation of Israel.

Yes, as I stated.. one of the definitions is non-Jew... but the other is pagan... both together say that they, non-believer of OT and NT, were called pagan/gentile.

Qnts2 · Jan 11, 2013

visionary said:
Yes, as I stated.. one of the definitions is non-Jew... but the other is pagan... both together say that they, non-believer of OT and NT, were called pagan/gentile.

Ok, I do not see non-Jewish as being equivalent to pagan. Especially in light of the prophesies concerning the Gentiles coming to the Messiah in the Tenakh and the NT talking about believing non-Jewish people. Since Gentile/non-Jewish believers are prophesied, non-Jewish believers are a sign of the Messiah.

One of my favorite songs is 'Jew and Gentile, One in Messiah'.

visionary · Jan 11, 2013

Qnts2 said:
Ok, I do not see non-Jewish as being equivalent to pagan. Especially in light of the prophesies concerning the Gentiles coming to the Messiah in the Tenakh and the NT talking about believing non-Jewish people. Since Gentile/non-Jewish believers are prophesied, non-Jewish believers are a sign of the Messiah.

One of my favorite songs is 'Jew and Gentile, One in Messiah'.

non-Jewish are called pagans by definition of their faith... non-Jewish are also called, believers, saints, brethren, if by definition of their faith they profess faith in The Holy One of Israel... which they have joined together in belief that He is the One true God and His Laws are righteous for all His people,.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 11, 2013

Qnts2 said:
By definition, a Gentile is a non-Jew. People who are not Jewish can be believers.

Mirriam Webster

Definition of GENTILE

1
often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith;

Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation First Known Use: 14th century

Since the first know use is the 14th century, we need to accept a definition from a dictionary.

In Hebrew, there is no equivalent word. The term Goy, means nation, so to arrive at a translation to the word Gentile, it must clearly mean a nation(s) other then the nation of Israel.

It seems you two may be arguing from two sides of the same coin, from what I can see.

visionary · Jan 11, 2013

Easy G (G²);62162483 said:
It seems you two may be arguing from two sides of the same coin, from what I can see.

"Gentile" is on term that started out meaning non-Jewish/pagan... since Yeshua's time, Paul and Luke used "gentile" for non-believer, believer, and non-Jew which added further confusion.

davidbenephraim · Jan 11, 2013

Qnts2 said:
So to summarize what I understand you to be saying, if you are a believer in Yeshua, you are no longer a Gentile. All believers are grafted in Israelites. So, there is no such thing as a Gentile believer in Yeshua.

Do I have that right?

Yes, you have that right.

And what of the Jewish people who do not believe? Do you believe they are still children of Israel or are they now Gentiles?

As I pondered your question about the Jewish people who do not believe in Yeshua three things came to my mind.

1. In John chapter the Jewish Rabbis of the Pharisee sect said they were the children of Abraham to which Yeshua replied,"You are of your father the devil" John 8:44 (ESV).

2. Yeshua instructed His taught ones to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees" Matthew 16:6 (ESV).

The leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees is their doctrine or teaching. The leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees caused the Jews in Yeshua's day to depart from the Torah. Anytime an Isrealite departs from Torah he/she becomes a goy spriritually because his/her heart becomes uncircumcised. Modern Judaism is still full of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. I will leave it up to you to draw your own conclusion about the Jewish people who do not believe in Yeshua.

3. “For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life….Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of Elohim.” John 3:16&18 (ESV)

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…” Hosea 4:6

Shalom,
David

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