Coming in the clouds of Heaven!

[SavedByGrace82]

Hello!

I have studied the scripture and I think that I have found some interessting! And I wanna have your comment on this!

When Jesus stod before the Caiaphas the Highpriest - Caiaphas asked Jesus: "Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed" Jesus answered him and said: " I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" Mark 14:61-62

In the Old Testament Clouds is made reference to God's glory and his presence! Look at this verses in Exodus 34

"4And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. 5And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
8And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped."


The Lord descended in the cloud, Problably The Son of Man will come back in the same way?



Here we have another verses.



Exodus 40:34-38


34Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
36And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:
37But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up.
38For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys."


so my question is: When Jesus said that he will comeback in the clouds of Heaven - did he meant that he was the God of Israel? What do you think?

God bless you all!

 

[Mr Dave]

Interesting stuff

My Bible says that Jesus is quoting from the OT in mark there from

Dan 7:13 - "As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a human being coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient ONe and was presented before him."

and Psalm 110:1 - "The Lord says to my lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."

It seems that yes, Jesus is certainly claiming a certain position, if you read on in Daniel as to what is given this person form the clouds, He is given dominion, kingship, he will be served by all peoples and nations. His dominion is everlasting. His Kingship shall never be destroyed.

Pretty great stuff, and seems like Jesus is claiming that he is on level with the God of Israel, in a Trinitarian context, that He is one and the same.

Jag sägar ja. Jesus sägar den han är Gud av Israel

 

[Jpark]

The Lord descended in the cloud, Problably The Son of Man will come back in the same way?

Yes (Acts 1:11).

Here we have another verses.



Exodus 40:34-38


34Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
36And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:
37But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up.
38For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys."


so my question is: When Jesus said that he will comeback in the clouds of Heaven - did he meant that he was the God of Israel? What do you think?

God bless you all!

Possibly.

Consider the following:

Phil. 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

Eph. 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Jeremiah 23:24 "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God indeed dwell with mankind on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built.

John 1:14 (Codex Sinaiticus) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 (Rotherhams) And, the Word, became, flesh, and pitched his tent among us, and we gazed upon his glory, - a glory, as an Only-begotten from his Father. Full of favour and truth.

These seem to indicate that God came to earth named Jesus while remaining as God, a Spirit (when I capitalize the s in spirit, I refer to God and I emphasize God's limitlessness), and when He died and was resurrected, God in the flesh became one with God, a Spirit.

Even if Jesus isn't God, He is no longer a human being. He was in the flesh temporarily.

 

[SavedByGrace82]

Interesting stuff

My Bible says that Jesus is quoting from the OT in mark there from

Dan 7:13 - "As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a human being coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient ONe and was presented before him."

and Psalm 110:1 - "The Lord says to my lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."

It seems that yes, Jesus is certainly claiming a certain position, if you read on in Daniel as to what is given this person form the clouds, He is given dominion, kingship, he will be served by all peoples and nations. His dominion is everlasting. His Kingship shall never be destroyed.

Pretty great stuff, and seems like Jesus is claiming that he is on level with the God of Israel, in a Trinitarian context, that He is one and the same.

Hello Mr Dave! And thx for your post!

And I agree with you that Jesus quotes from Daniel 7:13! But just the fact that Jesus will comeback in a clouds of heaven - Just as God did in Exodus - I believe that Jesus there said something moore.

Imagne the High priest standing before Jesus and hear Jesus said this stuff - He must think of the story when God him self descended in the cloud before Moses! But I totally agree with you - then Jesus said this stuff to the High Priest - he Quotes from Daniel 7!

God bless you Dave - and remember, correct me if I spell in the wrong way here!

 

[Mr Dave]

Hello Mr Dave! And thx for your post!

And I agree with you that Jesus quotes from Daniel 7:13! But just the fact that Jesus will comeback in a clouds of heaven - Just as God did in Exodus - I believe that Jesus there said something moore.

Imagne the High priest standing before Jesus and hear Jesus said this stuff - He must think of the story when God him self descended in the cloud before Moses! But I totally agree with you - then Jesus said this stuff to the High Priest - he Quotes from Daniel 7!

God bless you Dave - and remember, correct me if I spell in the wrong way here!

Of course, I forgot to mention in my last post that in saying this, those were listening would have immediately picked up on what He was saying. He said these things in the presence of those who knew the scriptures back to front, and would have recognised any reference He made. I'm sure the High Priest will have thought of that, it can't not have gone through his mind, especially right after Jesus said 'Yes I am' to being asked if He was the Messiah.

 

[SavedByGrace82]

Of course, I forgot to mention in my last post that in saying this, those were listening would have immediately picked up on what He was saying. He said these things in the presence of those who knew the scriptures back to front, and would have recognised any reference He made. I'm sure the High Priest will have thought of that, it can't not have gone through his mind, especially right after Jesus said 'Yes I am' to being asked if He was the Messiah.

I agree with you Mr Dave!

I am sure of that too!

 

[SavedByGrace82]

Yes (Acts 1:11).

Possibly.

Consider the following:

Phil. 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

Eph. 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Jeremiah 23:24 "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God indeed dwell with mankind on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built.

John 1:14 (Codex Sinaiticus) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 (Rotherhams) And, the Word, became, flesh, and pitched his tent among us, and we gazed upon his glory, - a glory, as an Only-begotten from his Father. Full of favour and truth.

These seem to indicate that God came to earth named Jesus while remaining as God, a Spirit (when I capitalize the s in spirit, I refer to God and I emphasize God's limitlessness), and when He died and was resurrected, God in the flesh became one with God, a Spirit.

Even if Jesus isn't God, He is no longer a human being. He was in the flesh temporarily.

Hello Jpark!

I dident see your post until now! Thanks for posting!

So you believe that Jesus and the Holy spirit is the same person? Did I understand you correct now?

Sorry for my english - I spell wery bad, but I hope that you understand me!

God bless you Jpark!

 

[ebia]

As Dave said, coming on the clouds would be an unmistakable reference to Daniel 7 in that culture, and therefore a pretty clear claim to be that Son of Man figure. It needs noting, however, that the Son of Man in Daniel 7 was not necessarily identified with the Messiah, and (which is widely overlooked) that in Daniel 7 the Son of Man is "coming" not to earth but to the throneroom of God - I'd heaven.

When Jesus, Luke (in his ascension narrative) and Paul borrow that language they aren't meaning it literally - even then nobody thought heaven was spacially upwards. The are borrowing the language to invest the events with their meaning.

 

[Jpark]

Hello Jpark!

I dident see your post until now! Thanks for posting!

So you believe that Jesus and the Holy spirit is the same person? Did I understand you correct now?

Sorry for my english - I spell wery bad, but I hope that you understand me!

God bless you Jpark!

Perhaps, but I cannot say. What is clear is that I believe that Jesus is of the same "substance" as God, that is, I believe that Jesus is presently incorporeal and immaterial but will return in a bodily form.

I can understand what you're saying.

 

[ebia]

Perhaps, but I cannot say. What is clear is that I believe that Jesus is of the same "substance" as God. He is incorporeal and immaterial.

That would undo the point of resurrection.

 

[dcyates]

Perhaps, but I cannot say. What is clear is that I believe that Jesus is of the same "substance" as God, that is, I believe that Jesus is presently incorporeal and immaterial but will return in a bodily form.

I can understand what you're saying.

Yeah, I have to say that I agree with ebia here that such an interpretation would negate the entire point of Jesus' physical, or 'bodily', resurrection.
I think we're overly influenced by Hellenistic/Greek thought in our Christian theology. To the Greeks (as well as to many other people in the ancient world) the physical body was "the prison-house of the soul" and was well-gotten rid of when we died. Within the various cultures--ancient and modern--who regard the material, fleshly body as something weak, tainted, and basically undesirable, cremation stood as an apt symbol of this. In other words, the body could be burned and thus utterly destroyed because the deceased's soul or spirit was now free of it. But it's noteworthy that the Hebrews did not cremate their corpses, but rather buried them intact. They kept them in anticipation of their eventual resurrection; that when YHWH finally and completely fulfilled his covenant promises to Israel, he would gather together ALL of his people--both past and present--and establish them in the Land that he had promised them and would then reign over them as their eternal King.
We see this exact same scenario delineated in the book of Revelation. Notice that ALL of God's People are gathered together and all dwell in God's New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven TO the Earth. We don't go to heaven. Instead, God brings heaven to us and dwells with us here on his newly created earth, just as it was supposed to be as described in Genesis 1-2, where humanity dwelled in God's Edenic paradise and him here with us.

 

[Woldeyesus]

The highly significant timing in the parallel verse of Matt. 26:64, "FROM THIS TIME ON, you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right of the Almighty and coming on the clouds of heaven", leads to a perfect and diacritical death on the cross which we tend to delay and miss today (Ibid, 27: 50-56).

 

[Johnnz]

Stephen saw Jesus as the Son of Man at his martyrdom. Jesus i snot in any non physical state in heaven.

John
NZ

 

[Woldeyesus]

Stephen saw Jesus as the Son of Man at his martyrdom. Jesus i snot in any non physical state in heaven.

John
NZ

Your statement completely contradicts what is written: "Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw God's glory and Jesus standing at the right-hand side of God." Then he said, "Look! I see heaven opened and the Son of Man standing at the right-hand side of God!" (Acts 7: 55-56)

One who is "full of the Holy Spirit" (as Stephen was) is given to see at Christ's death on the cross not any martyrdom whatsoever but only his divine glory and absolute authority over death and life in a verifiably perfect and diacritical death on the cross, viz.: the meritorious credentials of Christ as Lord!

(We too will agree with Stephen if we check out the details of Jesus' crucifixion ranging from fixing the day to the actual cause of death!)

 

[Johnnz]

From the scripture you quoted (also the hone I had in mind) the title given Jesus is The Son of Man. Your Greek based views do not accord with Scripture

John
NZ

 

[Woldeyesus]

From the scripture you quoted (also the hone I had in mind) the title given Jesus is The Son of Man. Your Greek based views do not accord with Scripture

John
NZ

Please clarify your objection!