Comet Neowise

Brightmoon · Jul 17, 2020

I agree that creationists make a lot of atheists. Once people understand that creationism doesn’t make any sense, they conclude that God doesn’t exist because of the nonsense they get told about nature . Last Thursdayism doesn’t work as an explanation either. Why make the earth and universe look old when God could have made it last Thursday? The universe IS old

Dave L · Jul 17, 2020

Brightmoon said:
I agree that creationists make a lot of atheists. Once people understand that creationism doesn’t make any sense, they conclude that God doesn’t exist because of the nonsense they get told about nature . Last Thursdayism doesn’t work as an explanation either. Why make the earth and universe look old when God could have made it last Thursday? The universe IS old

Faith can say both positions are true yet to be explained. What if things are invisible but eternal with God as part of his eternal decree? But became visible 6000 years or so ago with the application of matter?

Scott Husted · Jul 17, 2020

JohnDB said:
Ok...
Apparently the 6 literal day creation believers have to take a hit with this comet.

It has a 6800 year track... something that the math definitely shows and can't be explained away.

Earth history is only 6000 years at the most expanded timeline....4,000 before Jesus and 2,000 after.

Soooo

How can a comet be on a return track that is 800 years too much?

There are others with longer trajectories ...

JohnDB · Jul 17, 2020

Scott Husted said:
There are others with longer trajectories ...

Oh yeah?
I haven't heard about those ones.

A 6800 year orbit....that's a fairly large orbit. Almost to the point of it not really being an orbit at all.

Does anyone have the slide/pic of how comets and the solar system actually move so people can visualize how they actually understand the orbit....seen one a while back and can't find it anywhere now.

chilehed · Jul 17, 2020

JohnDB said:
How can a comet be on a return track that is 800 years too much?

Seriously?

Arc F1 · Jul 17, 2020

JohnDB said:
Ok...
Apparently the 6 literal day creation believers have to take a hit with this comet.

It has a 6800 year track... something that the math definitely shows and can't be explained away.

Earth history is only 6000 years at the most expanded timeline....4,000 before Jesus and 2,000 after.

Soooo

How can a comet be on a return track that is 800 years too much?

Nobody can be sure if it was our days or God's days. If God were to step in right now and give us technical terms as to what happened we wouldn't understand it. I try to concentrate on the message. Just my two cents worth.

Scott Husted · Jul 17, 2020

JohnDB said:
Oh yeah?
I haven't heard about those ones.

A 6800 year orbit....that's a fairly large orbit. Almost to the point of it not really being an orbit at all.

Does anyone have the slide/pic of how comets and the solar system actually move so people can visualize how they actually understand the orbit....seen one a while back and can't find it anywhere now.

There's one that has a projected 250,000 year orbit which in the grand scheme of things is relatively short.

Solor systems orbit around galactica centers that on their own scale are quite moderate.

Space time is relative to mass and perception the measurement of it ...

nonaeroterraqueous · Jul 17, 2020

JohnDB said:
It has a 6800 year track... something that the math definitely shows and can't be explained away.

So? Judging by the speed and the orbital path we know that if it came by before, then it was 6800 years ago. If we thought it was on its three-millionth orbit, then it would discredit the old-earthers (16 billion years), and if we thought it was on its second orbit, then it would discredit the young-earthers. Merely saying that it has a 6800 year orbit means nothing about the age of the universe.

Unless you have some information I don't know about, I think you just discredited yourself.

Redwingfan9 · Jul 17, 2020

JohnDB said:
Ok...
Apparently the 6 literal day creation believers have to take a hit with this comet.

It has a 6800 year track... something that the math definitely shows and can't be explained away.

Earth history is only 6000 years at the most expanded timeline....4,000 before Jesus and 2,000 after.

Soooo

How can a comet be on a return track that is 800 years too much?

Among creationists there is debate as to whether the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old. I don't take a position on the matter but it is unfair to say we are all adherents to 6,000 years.

That said, the fact that the Neowise Comet has a 6800 year track is really irrelevant. Whether the comet has been past Earth before doesn't matter. The time length of its orbit neither proves or disproves Biblical creation.

Archivist · Jul 17, 2020

Stephen Porter said:
Simple,you are being lied to about the comet.

Wrong.

Archivist · Jul 17, 2020

Stephen Porter said:
Not so,the earth is about 6000 years old.

No, it is about 4.54 billion years old.

topher694 · Jul 17, 2020

staff edit

You are not doing yourself any favors here if you think you are convincing people that you have a better understanding of the Bible. I'm never accused you of lying. The scripture says, "exchanged the truth of God for the lie". That doesn't make them liars, it makes them deceived. It is saying they worshiped the creation instead of the Creator. And, that is what I am saying. You are more focused on being right about the creation that getting to know the Creator.

Job 33:6 · Jul 17, 2020

When it comes to objects moving through space, I always enjoyed the ide a provided by David McMillan.

Basically, this guy looked at this galaxy in motion, leaving a trail in it's wake as it is pulled by gravity, into a galaxy cluster.

The trail extends hundreds of thousands of light years, suggesting that even if a physical galaxy could travel at light speed, The universe would still be hundreds of thousands of years old, As that is the amount of time it would have taken for the Galaxy to traverse such a distance.

The alternative option is to conclude that perhaps God simply made the galaxy look as if it had already traveled that distance but in reality had not. Which is really just a form of last-tuesdayism and is just an irrational position to hold. such a person may as well believe that the entire universe was created yesterday and that God simply created our memories and everything to appear as if we have been around for years, but in reality have not. As Ken Miller would say. I believe in God, but not a deceptive one.

Path Across the Stars

The first image I’d seen was merely visible light, captured by Hubble. Astronomers had also imaged the Norma Cluster using the Chandra X-ray Observatory, an enormous telescope launched into low Earth orbit in 1999.

The image from Chandra, combined with the one from Hubble, shows a vast trail of superheated gas in the wake of the galaxy, stripped away by the shock of plunging into the core of the galaxy cluster. The trail stretches unbroken for a distance of 280,000 light-years.

This was the moment when everything broke down. To claim that light could somehow move infinitely fast to reach us was fantastic enough, but this was an example showing that it didn’t matter how fast light might move. I couldn’t conceive any way for an entire galaxy to traverse 280,000 light-years in just 6,000 years. The universe simply could not be young, and my whole edifice crumbled.

Brightmoon · Jul 17, 2020

James Hutton’s unconformity by itself is older than 6000 years. Hutton realized that in the 1700s It take time to put down the sediment layers . It takes time to solidify into rock . It takes time to slowly move into a vertical position . ( fast would have broken it up) . It takes time to erode that 1st layer level . It takes time to put down the 2nd group of layers and time to move them out of horizontal as well. As that old Stylistics song goes “ I’ve got time on my hands”

Maria Billingsley · Jul 17, 2020

JohnDB said:
Ok...
Apparently the 6 literal day creation believers have to take a hit with this comet.

It has a 6800 year track... something that the math definitely shows and can't be explained away.

Earth history is only 6000 years at the most expanded timeline....4,000 before Jesus and 2,000 after.

Soooo

How can a comet be on a return track that is 800 years too much?

There is an abundant amount of evidence that day one of creation is much older than 6000 years old, but that should not be a deal breaker for anyone. Be blessed.

Leaf473 · Jul 17, 2020

I don't think I'm a YEC person (maybe I am and don't know it), but for the sake of discussion,
suppose the comet was created already on its way.

and yes, I know that's a form of last tuesdayism.

myself, it doesn't seem like an outlandish idea:
was there a literal Adam and Eve?
if so, how old did they appear to be when they were created?

if they were created middle-aged (or, as I like to imagine, as teenagers),
why is it strange to think the universe was created "middle-aged"?

Brightmoon · Jul 17, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
There is an abundant amount of evidence that day one of creation is much older than 6000 years old, but that should not be a deal breaker for anyone. Be blessed.

it’s a deal breaker for a lot of people because if creationists lie about the evidence for a old earth then what’s to prevent them from lying about the spiritual side . Creationists especially young earthers are roundly derided as con artists by people who have left the faith. I’m glad I was never raised in a creationist household as I think being lied to like that would have caused me to lose my faith too

BryanJohnMaloney · Jul 17, 2020

Stephen Porter said:
Simple,you are being lied to about the comet.

Even simpler: The comet was created 800 years old.

Job 33:6 · Jul 17, 2020

Leaf473 said:
I don't think I'm a YEC person (maybe I am and don't know it), but for the sake of discussion,
suppose the comet was created already on its way.

and yes, I know that's a form of last tuesdayism.

myself, it doesn't seem like an outlandish idea:
was there a literal Adam and Eve?
if so, how old did they appear to be when they were created?

if they were created middle-aged (or, as I like to imagine, as teenagers),
why is it strange to think the universe was created "middle-aged"?

This is common logic used as justification by young earthers.

The questions becomes, what is a more reasonable approach? Last tuesday-ism or...acknowledgement of history?

I'll give one more example.

Geologists run into these same scenarios when looking at fossils. Structural features like Hutton's unconformity cannot logically form in a brief amount of time, and yet we have things like dinosaur tracks and burrows and dinosau nests with eggs in them.

It's more than just...what something looks like. These are like scars of time. Dinosaur foot tracks suggest the passage of time, burrows and nests with eggs suggest passage of time (building nests, digging, walking). Feeding traces, scars in fossil bone from predator-prey battles. Etc.

Like imagine if Adam and Eve had...physical scars. It's more than just a regular man and woman, it's a man and woman that show evidence of past times.

And so ultimately, the old earth position would simply suggest that there is something broken about this last tuesday-ism worldview that continues even into the story of Adam and Eve and beyond.

To acknowledge an old earth and universe is really transformative in many aspects of one's world view, where everything, Genesis, Adam and Eve, creation of earth and life etc. Are all collectively transformed.

The old earth side suggests that we ought to trust in what we see with our eyes. The young earth side suggests that perhaps Satan is tricking us.

So the question comes down to, if you trust in what you see with your own eyes, and how confident you are in what you see.

JohnDB · Jul 17, 2020

Leaf473 said:
myself, it doesn't seem like an outlandish idea:
was there a literal Adam and Eve?
if so, how old did they appear to be when they were created?

The Bible is not a history book but it does contain relevant history.
The creation account is not a manual of how God built the universe either.

But that God did it by agency of Jesus is clear.

Adam was a real guy...Eve/Hawaa was as well.
Both names are titles...not just tags used to differentiate them. Titles as in positions of authority or position. (As is most names in scripture)

Was Adam and Eve the only people God created? We don't really know because God didn't tell us. Adam and Eve had lots of kids...and where we are only told about a few... we know they had more.

What we can figure out is that by the time Cain killed Abel the power of exponential growth had made it to where at a minimum there were roughly 20,000 people running around. City building could be possible for Cain...not just a set of empty tents.

A whole society hot and heavy looking for a miraculous "Seed of the Woman" that would allow them access back into the Garden in Eden. Making babies would be a huge imperative. One every 9 months by every post pubescent woman. (Money was food and food was money...and land was cheap and available for the taking.)

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