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Not a problem at all understanding that worship offered up to God based on the teachings of men is vain. On the other hand, worship offered up to God based on doing as He directs is acceptable, righteous worship (assuming that one is sincere i.e., not just going through the motions; characterized by a heart that loves and reverences God).
Okay, it seems you may have missed some of the previous discussions. Post # 72 on page 8 is one in particular I suggest you might want to consider. Especially note the comments on 2 Timothy 4:2. "Preach the word" is not a command given specifically for the assembly. Why not apply your reasoning to that passage and let's see where things go? For instance, does this passage apply to teaching just outside the assembly, or to both inside and outside the assembly? If not the assembly, then Timothy was at liberty to preach something other than God's word in the assembly. Wouldn't preaching something other than God's word in the assembly result in vain worship? Likewise, wouldn't singing something other than psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs in the assembly result in vain worship?
This may not define righteous worship since we use the word worship in the definition??
How/what can you do inside the assembly that is wrong outside the assembly?
I guess if a preacher got up and sang some of the words to some teen singers lyrics that showed how bad it has gotten and to show what we need to guard against, it would be alright.
Yes, we greet each other in or out of the assembly with: 19</SPAN>Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, or we do other stuff. But that is not the only thing we can do, we may bow or shack hands or kiss on the hand or hug or kiss etc. I am a little confused with what you are trying to say. Are you suggesting that if you do not do all three of these acts when you meet another Christian for even a short period of time you have sinned?DRA said:
Are we agreed then that Ephesians 5:18a ("Do not be drunk with wine") applies to both inside and outside the assembly? Assuming that we are, then shouldn't we also agree that the same principle is applicable to verse 19? After all, they are in the same context, right? Therefore, verse 19 should also apply both in and out of the assembly, right? If not, why not? Why the change?
Is "guessing" the same as having authority for what is said and done per Colossians 3:17, which if you notice, directly follows a similar teaching in verse 16 to Ephesians 5:19? Anyway, taking the principle taught in Colossians 3:17, and applying it to to either Colossians 3:16 or Ephesians 5:19, wouldn't it be vain worship to follow the teachings/practices of men versus doing what God directs?
Yes, we greet each other in or out of the assembly with: 19</SPAN>Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, or we do other stuff. But that is not the only thing we can do, we may bow or shack hands or kiss on the hand or hug or kiss etc. I am a little confused with what you are trying to say. Are you suggesting that if you do not do all three of these acts when you meet another Christian for even a short period of time you have sinned?
Originally Posted by bling http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=44342187#post44342187
Will let me ask you if your preacher did a verse of a song that was not spiritual to make a point about the lyrics of songs in a lesson on how satan influences teen thinking would he have sinned?
Do you feel the Spirit has led you to your answer?
It seems that you have completely misunderstood the meaning of my post. What I mean to say is that the loud and disconcerting worship style that we associate with Pentecostal churches bears more similarity to New Testament worship than the somber worship that you find in most RM churches (including mine). Our approval of that quiet and visibly orderly style comes from our culture, not the New Testament.
Except that the Israelites thrown into exile because of their idolatry, and were told that faithfulness to the laws God gave them was necessary for their restoration. Thus, the exiles were to live as if they were in the promised land, which was their goal.
If you're going to talk about the importance of following the commands of Scripture, I would like you to explain a couple of things:
How do you determine which parts of the Law of Moses to follow, and which laws to ignore? How do you know which New Testament commands to follow, and which ones to ignore?
In what sense were the Israelite fathers baptized into Moses? How did Paul conclude that this passage was related to baptism into Christ? How could we come to the same conclusions? What consistent law of interpretation is Paul using, and how do we apply it?
It seems to me that you continue to focus on details without considering the questions that really matter. There's no point in talking about interpretations of particular passages when we have such substantial disagreement on principles.
For example, when you say:
I don't fail to see the consequences of my reasoning at all. In the first place, the door isn't open to "everything." We know that we must not eat and drink the Lord's Supper without examining ourselves. We know we must gather without divisions. There are a number of other prohibitions too.
But in terms of the form of worship? There's nothing in Scripture to forbid multimedia presentations, 4-part harmony, native dance, hip-hop, or any number of other forms of worship that the apostles wouldn't even be able to imagine. Barring a word from God, we do not have the authority to forbid these things.
With that said, I do agree that we need to think a lot more carefully about the consequences of what we do. I thought that DerSchweik made some good points about the vitality that can be lost when we spend time listening to music instead of participating in it, and I think we could have a fruitful discussion about how we are supposed to worship. That's where a forum like this can really do some good.
Alan
I've studied and discussed this issue in depth over the last few years. At the end of it all I just think the fact that this is an issue at all is such a tragic distraction and an unhealthy preoccupation for far too many.
Seriously - we waste way too much energy worrying about the form of the worship and not nearly enough on the worship itself. I say that about those who determine we mustn't have instruments at all to the point that it becomes divisive as well as those who through their practice place undue emphasis on their "worship team", determining that their services must be contemporary by placing their instrumentalists on a pedestal. Both sides are distracted from the truth in my opinion. Personally I could care less whether a congregation has no instruments, an old lady on a piano or a full rock band... as long as their worship is sincere and true. It's really not meant to be about the form.
Welcome to the forum. Jump right in anytime.I just wanted to comment on the great discussion on the very touchy (to some) subject.
I'm brand new to this site, but I hope I can add just a little to what I've already gained from here in the short time I've visited.
Thanks.
I couldn't agree more.
Okay ...
No problems with truth and sincerity. But, how do passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, James 5:13, and Acts 16:25 fit into the idea of truth and sincerity? For instance, are these passages not truth? And, who is sincere: the person that does what these passages teach, or the one that doesn't do what these passages teach?
Originally Posted by Splayd
I've studied and discussed this issue in depth over the last few years. At the end of it all I just think the fact that this is an issue at all is such a tragic distraction and an unhealthy preoccupation for far too many.
Seriously - we waste way too much energy worrying about the form of the worship and not nearly enough on the worship itself. I say that about those who determine we mustn't have instruments at all to the point that it becomes divisive as well as those who through their practice place undue emphasis on their "worship team", determining that their services must be contemporary by placing their instrumentalists on a pedestal. Both sides are distracted from the truth in my opinion. Personally I could care less whether a congregation has no instruments, an old lady on a piano or a full rock band... as long as their worship is sincere and true. It's really not meant to be about the form.
Okay ...
No problems with truth and sincerity. But, how do passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, James 5:13, and Acts 16:25 fit into the idea of truth and sincerity? For instance, are these passages not truth? And, who is sincere: the person that does what these passages teach, or the one that doesn't do what these passages teach?
Well... We've been down this road MANY times, but I'll restate some truth.
The cited passages of Scripture do not, in any way, support the anti-instrumental position. Psalms (psalo) were, by definition, songs accompanied by stringed instruments. In addition, the cited passages aren't even speaking about "corporate" or "congregational" worship.
But most of all, do we really view God as so capricious, nasty and vindictive that we believe He's going to send people to Hell for doing something He never said we weren't supposed to do?
Also, this "argument from silence" falls flat on its face, in light of the fact that if you're going to use that argument you also MUST use it across the board. You MUST apply it to the use of church buildings, pulpits, PA Systems, pews, printed hymnals, etc. Either we obey ALL SILENCE, or admit that we're picking and choosing, based on what we WANT to do.
Originally Posted by - DRA -
No problems with truth and sincerity. But, how do passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, James 5:13, and Acts 16:25 fit into the idea of truth and sincerity? For instance, are these passages not truth? And, who is sincere: the person that does what these passages teach, or the one that doesn't do what these passages teach?
Agree that we've been down the road, but not sure where the "MANY" times comes from. I'll also take the liberty of restating some truth.
My position/reasoning is the passages tell us what pleases God. Therefore, we should do as the passages direct ... if we sincerely desire truth.
As previously discussed, let's take the proposed definition for Psalms that you offer and plug it into the passages in the N.T. where the word is used and see if this really is the correct meaning. Previously, you balked at this idea. I believe it is evident your proposed meaning simply isn't true. Psalms simply referred to the book of Psalms or an excerpt from a Psalm.
Gotcha. Eph. 5:19, Col.3:16, James 5:13, or Acts 16:26 don't apply to corporate or congregational worship. Therefore, please direct us to the passages that do.
I don't describe God is the manner you've presented, but do indeed believe there are two perspectives of God we should keep in mind per Romans 11:22.
And, yes, I do believe everything doesn't have to be specifically mentioned to be wrong. Examples: 1.) Jumping from the top of the temple in Matt. 4:5-7. Deut. 6:16, which Jesus quoted, doesn't prohibit jumping from the top of the temple. But, it was indeed wrong. To deliberatly jump would have been to tempt God - which violates the principle taught in the passage. 2.) Note the use of "and the like" (NKJV) in Galatians 5:21. I believe that when God specifically tells us what He wants, it is sinful to deviate from His word.
Your "silence argument" falls flat on its face in light of Hebrews 7:13-14,8:4.
Your issues with the church building, pulpits, etc. reveal a lack of understanding of generic versus specific authority, and fails to discern between expediencies versus additions to God's word.
Let's be fair in our consideration of "picking and choosing." Is instrumental music the only issue where it's assumed to be acceptable because it isn't expressly forbidden, or is this reasoning being selectively used by folks trying to justify what they "WANT" to do? In other words, everything not expressly forbidden is acceptable, right?
Same old same old...
If you want to believe that God is going to condemn people to an eternity in Hell, for doing something He never told us not to do, you're entitled to that.
Do you suppose there's anything else God forgot to tell us not to do, that He's going to condemn us to Hell for doing?
Is He going to condemn us to Hell for using an indoor baptistry?
Using a PA System in church?
Or is it only the use of instruments in worship He's going to condemn us to Hell for?
I think it's an honest rant. I feel the same way - there are unintended consequences to instrumental music - it makes it a show and not worship (in my opinion).
At my CoC we use a projector with the notes in SATB - I sing tenor, mostly............I'm not a good singer. But I try and I try my hardest and I try to become better. it is this want to get better, to improve, that I think the Lord enjoys. I think by having instrumental worship (even praise teams) there is no want or need to improve, the focus is taken away from the Lord.
I love acapella music - it is difficult to sing, but well worth it, in my opinion.
Just a couple quick thoughts: When Old Testament verses are brought up, alot of CoC people say they don't follow that law anymore. BUT WAIT- there are instruments in Heaven(Rev. 5:8).
Recently an elder of my church made a comment about "if the people don't like it here, they can go some place more entertaining." It's not about entertainment-it's about understanding the songs used in their worship service, and being bale to use them to praise God yourself. For instance, one line in the song "Hallelujah Praise Jehovah" mentions "and you floods above the sky." I have no clue what that means, and as such, I find it impossible to sing that song as praise.
BTW- look at the pitch pipe, if the osng leader uses one. 99% of the time they are labeled 'pitch instrument.' And really, they're just a round harmonica.
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