Code of Discipline

RavenPoe said:

More important than what you do to discipline your child is how you do it. A time out or a spanking are both bad if done in anger.

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That is my process, take a few days to think about the punishment, if you do so imediately you have a cxhance of blowing it outthe wtaer.

That being said, I think physical spanking is at best a last resort. Spanking teaches them to obey out of fear only - or just not get caught. Any reasonable discipline should fully explain why what they did was wrong, then fit the punishment to the crime. If you can, let the punisment involve them making ammends somehow.

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I agree, only if after the few days i cant see any other fit punishment, then out comes the strap.

It really depends on what you mean by "last resort". Some parents try everything else they can think of. Then, when they're frustrated and angry, they spank. This is the absolute wrong way to do it.

If, by last resort, you mean used only for the most dire of infractions, I agree.

Rachel

Not out of anger, but yes most dire, or for repeated offenses where no other method worked.

Ideally, never. I'd kinda feel like I failed if I had to.

JesusWalks78 said:

That is my process, take a few days to think about the punishment, if you do so imediately you have a cxhance of blowing it outthe wtaer.



I agree, only if after the few days i cant see any other fit punishment, then out comes the strap.

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What, like "Remember four days ago when you hit your sister? I'm going to hit you now, because that was wrong."

Bringing something up days later and then punishing a child for it isn't going to teach him or her anything.

Bananafish said:

What, like "Remember four days ago when you hit your sister? I'm going to hit you now, because that was wrong."

Bringing something up days later and then punishing a child for it isn't going to teach him or her anything.

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that is not something i would punish them like that for, it would be something that in fourdays they would still be thinking about....my example was stealing.

JesusWalks78 said:

pain is a part of the process of combat art, it is unavoidable, I am a practitioner in Tae Kwon Do (amongst other arts), and it is different from Combat art, it is a sport with rules and safety measures, I to have safety measures but the art I teach and learn is more combat oriented then TKD.

TKD in my opinion is not a very good form of self defence. It gets taken apart in most NHB competitions. I would rather my children be able to effectively defend themselves, then break a few boards.....as Uncle Bruce says, boards dont hit back.

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Im a 2nd degree black belt in TKD and I used to compete, and I can definately stand behind this. Its not an effective combat art and needs massive modification to even work itself into a good system (though Ive found that some TKD can be used to add a better offence to a more fluid system such as Aikido). Taking TKD apart isnt a hard feat, as youve mentioned, even in just a streetfight scenario with untrained assailents.

I know at the Karate-do and Aikido classes I go to now, no pain means that something isnt going correctly. Especially outside of the controlled demonstrations of techniques, negative reinforcement means that learning should be occuring. Id rather learn my lessons where Ill merely get hurt.

I truly wish that I began more intensive training earlier. The real world dosent have a softy mode. Though my beliefs seem to conflict most of yours in regards to other topics, I commend you on wanting to instill this aspect into your children.

JesusWalks78 said:

I agree, only if after the few days i cant see any other fit punishment, then out comes the strap.

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All by itself? And you can´t keep it from coming out?

(This is something that will never cease to amaze me: The very persons who keep emphasing how everybody else chooses to do what they do (yes, often in bold, italics and huge font sizes) describing their own actions as if they weren´t even their actions but those of unanimate objects.)

Robinsegg said:

We use a single swat on the butt for direct defiance/rebellion only. The child has a warning to make sure they know what they're choosing with the action. Most of the time, we use "time outs", extra work, or loss of priviledges. We talk to the child, to make sure the child understands the rule in question, and how to deal with a similar situation better in the future. Next time, we bring up that solution, hoping the child will choose it instead of whatever discipline measure would have to follow the inappropriate action.

Rachel

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We follow a similar pattern, although I allow 2 swats at times, and when they were younger, I would spank when my children would do something life threatening. Like my son had a habit of running out into the street. I had no problem spanking him for it since my brother was killed in a car accident after running in the street.

Taking their possossions off them for a while works way better. Boredom hurts far more than a smack, which only stings a bit for a few seconds.

LouTheWicked said:

A belt? A leather one? Jeez, that's got to sting.

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Depends how hard you're hit with it and how much.

I worked as a "mother's helper" a while ago, with parents who adopted children who had been in the foster care system for many years. They all had reactive attachment disorder (basically, they had lost the ability to form meaningful attachments to people, as every attachment they had in the past had been broken. It's basically stage 1 of sociopathy). These kids through screaming, biting, hitting, head-banging tantrums; swore; yelled racial slurs at one parent; ran away; made violent threats. I heard one once start singing that she wished her mom would get raped.

They were not quite the worst kids you can imagine, but pretty close, and the parents never once found a situation which "required" them to hit the kids. The most force they ever used was picking them up and carrying them to the "tantrum area" or physically restraining them if they were becoming dangerous to themselves or somebody else (they were trained in safe methods of restraint--not tying, btw, just pinning them to a mat on the floor).

Over time, the kids improved. They tantrumed less often, and for shorter amounts of time (while I was there, one girl got a party for 10 consecutive tantrum-free days--the longest she had ever gone). They were gaining the ability to keep themselves under control enough that they could be taken in public (in short, they were learning discipline). They could go to school, follow directions, play games with actual rules, and be happy.

All without physical punishment. Actually, with very little punishment at all. Rather, they were given opportunities to vent in safe ways and rewards for good behavior, a whole lot of modeling of positive behavior and lifestyles (like taking pictures of them playing together, hiking, or doing other well-adjusted sorts of things and hanging them around the house, to help form an image of who they "really were" and what they looked like and acted like when they were being who they really were.)

The closest they ever got to "punishment" was having logical consequences for behavior. If you run away and make your parents chase you, that was time they could have spent making dinner or paying bills or something. So, naturally, if you upset family life, you need to put in extra help to make up for it, and make everything run more smoothly again. Usually it meant cleaning, or some other extra chore, but the mindset around it was not punishment: you broke a rule or did something bad, so now I'm going to make you suffer in some way so you don't want to do it again. It was logical debit/credit: you took something away from the family (time, energy and harmony) so now you need to give something back.

And it works! With some of the worst kids imaginable.

Discipline should always be tailored to the child. These parents also probably signed an agreement to not use corporal punishment, since they'd adopted. I'd not say results can't be reached w/o corporal punishment, it really depends on the needs and temperment of the child.

Rachel

DaRkWoLf said:

I truly wish that I began more intensive training earlier. The real world dosent have a softy mode. Though my beliefs seem to conflict most of yours in regards to other topics, I commend you on wanting to instill this aspect into your children.

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Sorry, I disagree with JesusWalks on his approach to training ones' children by hitting them, twisting their arms and kicking them. If he were in America, and I knew he was doing this to his children, then he should be reported to the authorities and dealt with legally. Parents do not have "rights" to hit their children in this manner - spanking maybe, but not hitting, kicking or arm twisting.

The more hardcore martial arts guys (and believe me, we know a bunch, because my husband is an instructor himself) tend to be more egotistical, macho types who live in a Rambo type of fantasy world, when every situation is potentially a combat one. Like say, a gun owner who keeps automatic weapons because he thinks he may need them for the end of times. In reality, the more brutal the guy in his approach to training, the more brutal he is personally and emotionally; or he has a higher tendency to fly off the handle and hurt someone in a situation in which a normal person with a normal temperament would back down.

LouTheWicked said:

Taking their possossions off them for a while works way better. Boredom hurts far more than a smack, which only stings a bit for a few seconds.

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Not for every child. I had a very active imagination and it wasn't really punishment for me to have to do something that would be considered boring. I would often times spend whole afternoons in my room staring at the wall lost in my own little world, so a few smacks on my behind really did work better for me then a time out.

Re: Christalee

JW worded that a little graphically, but, done right and with the right child, that sort of "training" really isn't harmful (done badly, or with a child who just doesn't want to be there and is afraid of the entire ordeal is another story). So long as you stick to your kid's ability level (don't start throwing your all at a kid who's just starting out), and everything is done carefully for the purpose of learning, kids can understand that a twinge of pain is part of the experience. Think of a kid playing football or something--if they are into it, they often don't mind falling down and skinning their knees, or getting smacked by a ball.

There is no way to teach joint locks without actually locking the joints. Once they figure out that they're not getting injured, and that this is all part of the experience, most kids I've seen don't seem to mind it.

Mling said:

Now, if I am one of the kids, and I throw a screaming, biting tantrum, and my mom get's mad at me--that is control that I have over her. I can provoke her to anger.
If I do something really heinous, and she spanks me, that is control I have over her--I can force her to exaust her mental resources and use her "last resort" option.

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I see what you're saying here. However, spanking isn't my "las resort option". I use it for certain infractions, not because I can think of nothing else to do. Using spanking as a las resort method is very dangerous because of the emotions involved. I never spank out of anger/frustration, but very calmly and with the child's understanding that this is the consequence of his/her action. The child knew she was choosing that particular consequence with the action, because she had a warning of what the consequence would be. She had a choice to stop the action before reaping the consequence. It's her choice whether the action is worth the spanking.

As far as the "no spanking agreement", I guess I read wrong, 'cause I thought they were fosterchildren, not adopted. I know fosterparents can't use corporal punishment.

Rachel

christalee4 said:

Sorry, I disagree with JesusWalks on his approach to training ones' children by hitting them, twisting their arms and kicking them. If he were in America, and I knew he was doing this to his children, then he should be reported to the authorities and dealt with legally. Parents do not have "rights" to hit their children in this manner - spanking maybe, but not hitting, kicking or arm twisting.

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One of my friends gets thrown through a wall, literally, when he "cops an attitude." Hes actually turned out to be quite an upstanding individual. I think it a little much, but it worked for him. As I said before, both JWs training and punishment should be entirely dependant on the subject. He and I go fishing alot together.

christalee4 said:

The more hardcore martial arts guys (and believe me, we know a bunch, because my husband is an instructor himself) tend to be more egotistical, macho types who live in a Rambo type of fantasy world, when every situation is potentially a combat one.

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Sounds like a personal problem to me. If the people you know cant control themselves and rationally think out various life situations, there are problems that need to be addressed.

I train in 5 different arts martial arts three days per week (3 different classes on different days days and 2 informally, mind you), and I hold a 2nd degree black belt in TKD. I shoot eVil "assault weapons" and high power rifles almost every day. My ammo bill is scarry to look at. I can hit a 4" moving circle 90% of the time at 600 yards with one shot from my .308. I also am in good standing with two Mile clubs. Some of the certs Ive earned have rather offensive titles such as "Urban Sniper." Im also an IDPA competitor for fun. I can also draw a full sized 1911 from concealment, aim, and drop the hammer in .43 seconds, theres even a video of it on google videos.

I remember when I was in high school how two people tried to steal my soft drink. I retained my soft drink and they ate concrete. I wasnt anticipating having to prevent the theft of the only thing I had to drink, nor looking to pick a fight, but neither did I give in to people who cant understand courtesy, respect, and integrity. Appeasement and service as a door mat arent good ways to deal with problems in society.

Yet, last night I went to a rave, and quite simply didnt feel at all like I was in some combat situation. I didnt dislocate anyones arms for playing with my hair, or cut anyone open for suddenly clinging on to me. Im truly a very easy going person.

I dont walk around waiting/wanting stuff to go down, but I have a preliminary analysis of everyone I can see, and assume that there area additionally some people that I cant immediately see in case it does. If people dont want to cause harm, I have no reason to cause harm to them.

christalee4 said:

Like say, a gun owner who keeps automatic weapons because he thinks he may need them for the end of times.

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I have both an AR-15 and an Ak-47. Neither have ever walked out of the appartment and committed mass murder. Im also in a group of survivalists. Unlike some, we actually care about survival instead of some Rambo shoot-em-up fantasy. Weapons arent our primary concern.

christalee4 said:

In reality, the more brutal the guy in his approach to training, the more brutal he is personally and emotionally; or he has a higher tendency to fly off the handle and hurt someone in a situation in which a normal person with a normal temperament would back down.

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Interesting generalization. Once again, seems like a personal problem, as far as I can tell.

If flying off the handle means not being malleable in a situation, I believe you need to reconsider your definitions. If it means going berzerk and killing everyone in sight, I want to see some substance for that.

DaRkWoLf said:

Interesting generalization. Once again, seems like a personal problem, as far as I can tell.

If flying off the handle means not being malleable in a situation, I believe you need to reconsider your definitions. If it means going berzerk and killing everyone in sight, I want to see some substance for that.

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this sounds to me like she needs to meet more people, my family is of a clan called the Bati, fighting is what we are there for.

It is difficult to explain MA to a non practitioner, a sixth dan TKDer would get nailed by a purple belt BJJ, or even a upper red belt Judoka...TKD has been to commercialised.

I have seen the Hwa Rang Do, that stuff is crazy....but TKD now I only do for flexibility....I think that TKD is as deadly as Tae Bo really.

Now I am not dissing the TKDers, anyone who dedicates themselves to an art and reaches levels such as her husband has deserves respect for having the drive to get there. Mind you TKD also has 6 year old blackbelts and the famous camo belt of ATA....so i dont put much stock in rank....I have been studying Judo for almost two decades, and while in my head I know where I am, I have never graded and still wear my white belt and that is my official rank, that goes for all martial arts i learn.

I find people get to caught up in saying that they are a 22nd dan of Il-Mus-U-Up do, and then get creamed by a street fighter.

thats why her protests in terms of MA really dont mean much as I doubt she has personally done the time that many of us have put in to understand MA through her own experience.