Clothing and the Fall

[Battie]

Maybe this is totally silly, but it's something that bothered me a lot when I was a YEC. I think it's a fairly important detail of the story of the Fall, too.

One of the direct results of eating the fruit was that Adam and Eve, for the first time, felt shame. They clothed themselves and later God provided clothes for them. This is used to explain why human beings wear clothes today.

However, not all people wear clothes, or at least they do not cover up those things which we believe ought to be covered. I also don't believe that we consider cultures like these to be innocent (and therefore not need clothing), since we often send missionaries to their areas.

How do we deal with this, then? If fallen man feels shame and must cover himself, why don't they feel shame? It would seem that shame is a matter of culture than a universal law. We can even observe in our own cultures as we allow for less an less clothing to be worn.

Thanks for reading. I hope that made sense...

 

[CaptainMercy]

Maybe this is totally silly, but it's something that bothered me a lot when I was a YEC. I think it's a fairly important detail of the story of the Fall, too.

One of the direct results of eating the fruit was that Adam and Eve, for the first time, felt shame. They clothed themselves and later God provided clothes for them. This is used to explain why human beings wear clothes today.

However, not all people wear clothes, or at least they do not cover up those things which we believe ought to be covered. I also don't believe that we consider cultures like these to be innocent (and therefore not need clothing), since we often send missionaries to their areas.

How do we deal with this, then? If fallen man feels shame and must cover himself, why don't they feel shame? It would seem that shame is a matter of culture than a universal law. We can even observe in our own cultures as we allow for less an less clothing to be worn.

Thanks for reading. I hope that made sense...

If you recall that man's idea of clothing was that of fig leaves sown together for a covering, but God provided a much greater covering in giving man animal skin to wear.

However, not all people wear clothes, or at least they do not cover up those things which we believe ought to be covered. I also don't believe that we consider cultures like these to be innocent (and therefore not need clothing), since we often send missionaries to their areas....

Some of these (if not all) are caught up in immoralities not fit to mention due to their lack of shame. This has to be dealt with in a Loving but firm manner. The whole of the picture is that man without God is lost. When a missionary goes into places like these, he/she is put into a dangerous situation because of the confort zone of these people will be shaken with the message of the gospel. Much prayer, fasting and supplication must be offered for the people. This is why it imperative that we as Christians pray always and much for the missionaries.

 

[billwald]

Maybe Adam felt shame because he was "elect." <G>

 

[CaptainMercy]

Maybe Adam felt shame because he was "elect." <G>

Do you mind explaining your meaning?

 

[billwald]

Adam felt shame because he was the first of God's elect. Tribal people who remain nude are not elect else the Holy Spirit would at some point convince them that public nudity is shameful.

 

[HoneyDew]

Some of these (if not all) are caught up in immoralities not fit to mention due to their lack of shame. This has to be dealt with in a Loving but firm manner. The whole of the picture is that man without God is lost. When a missionary goes into places like these, he/she is put into a dangerous situation because of the confort zone of these people will be shaken with the message of the gospel. Much prayer, fasting and supplication must be offered for the people. This is why it imperative that we as Christians pray always and much for the missionaries.

I wonder what you mean by "caught up in immoralities?" I sit here racking my brain. "Lack of shame?" Could you explain?
What places are these you mention?
Miriam Makeba has a song you should listen to one day.

 

[payattention]

If you recall that man's idea of clothing was that of fig leaves sown together for a covering, but God provided a much greater covering in giving man animal skin to wear.


Some of these (if not all) are caught up in immoralities not fit to mention due to their lack of shame. This has to be dealt with in a Loving but firm manner. The whole of the picture is that man without God is lost. When a missionary goes into places like these, he/she is put into a dangerous situation because of the confort zone of these people will be shaken with the message of the gospel. Much prayer, fasting and supplication must be offered for the people. This is why it imperative that we as Christians pray always and much for the missionaries.

I can't believe the things that educated people believe. What would you say accounts for the gross immorality that exists among the clothed people of the West? Maybe the missionaries should stay home and do some good instead of going into people's world with thoughts of superiority.

 

[payattention]

Adam felt shame because he was the first of God's elect. Tribal people who remain nude are not elect else the Holy Spirit would at some point convince them that public nudity is shameful.

Where do you guys make up this stuff?

 

[HoneyDew]

I can't believe the things that educated people believe. What would you say accounts for the gross immorality that exists among the clothed people of the West? Maybe the missionaries should stay home and do some good instead of going into people's world with thoughts of superiority.

Hmmm.
And tell me this: why does it seem that wherever missionaries go, mercenaries follow? Why is it that "natives" always seem to lose their land, their culture, their lives?

 

[KerrMetric]

I can't believe the things that educated people believe.

Well you are making an assumption that is almost undoubtedly not true I'm afraid.

 

[payattention]

Well you are making an assumption that is almost undoubtedly not true I'm afraid.

I guess you believe it is true. Then explain the immorality among the clothed peoples.

 

[KerrMetric]

I guess you believe it is true. Then explain the immorality among the clothed peoples.

No you misunderstand. I was making a joke. I agree with you. Go back and read your post to blessedvalley that I quoted. You made an assumption about the other side.

 

[payattention]

No you misunderstand. I was making a joke. I agree with you. Go back and read your post to blessedvalley that I quoted. You made an assumption about the other side.

blessedvalley was clear in what he said. I did not have to make any assumptions.

 

[Battie]

Thank you for the answers so far.

BlessedValley, I think I see what you are saying, but my understanding is that shame, in the Genesis story, is a direct result of sin. In other words, sin causes us to feel shame, which is why we wear close. So all who sin should feel this shame.

What I wrote above doesn't make sense to me, so maybe I'm misunderstanding. But I thought this interpretation was always used to explain why we where close. Am I getting something wrong?

 

[TwinCrier]

Sin doesn't cause people to feel shame, it's getting caught that causes the guilt. Adam and Eve like many of us, enjoyed the sin, it was having to face the cansequwnces later they didn't like. A woman who is being paid $200 an hour to strip, lap dance and such doesn't usually feel guilt, but if that same girl grew up in an Amish community the thought od wearing a tank top may horrify her. It depends on how close you are to God.

 

[KerrMetric]

It depends on how close you are to God.

That is most assuredly not what it depends upon.

 

[Battie]

Sin doesn't cause people to feel shame, it's getting caught that causes the guilt. Adam and Eve like many of us, enjoyed the sin, it was having to face the cansequwnces later they didn't like. A woman who is being paid $200 an hour to strip, lap dance and such doesn't usually feel guilt, but if that same girl grew up in an Amish community the thought od wearing a tank top may horrify her. It depends on how close you are to God.

Adam and Eve felt shame before they were caught by God:
[BIBLE]Genesis 3:7--Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.[/BIBLE]

In your example, you are essentially saying that the Amish are closest to God because they dress most conservatively. You probably did not mean this, but that's how it follows. What you are actually showing is that modesty is, in part, a social construct. Because the Amish dress conservatively, they would be embarrassed to wear what you or I might feel is perfectly acceptable.

In the same way, I cannot see that nudity in cultures who do not feel the need to cover themselves is necessarily sinful. In our culture, we link skimpiness or nudity with sexuality and temptation, so for us to push the social norms would be wrong. However, other cultures may not make these associations, so nudity would not be shocking or wrong.

 

[KerrMetric]

Adam and Eve felt shame before they were caught by God:
[BIBLE]Genesis 3:7--Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.[/BIBLE]

In your example, you are essentially saying that the Amish are closest to God because they dress most conservatively. You probably did not mean this, but that's how it follows. What you are actually showing is that modesty is, in part, a social construct. Because the Amish dress conservatively, they would be embarrassed to wear what you or I might feel is perfectly acceptable.

In the same way, I cannot see that nudity in cultures who do not feel the need to cover themselves is necessarily sinful. In our culture, we link skimpiness or nudity with sexuality and temptation, so for us to push the social norms would be wrong. However, other cultures may not make these associations, so nudity would not be shocking or wrong.

I read her post that way too. Also there is nothing wrong with sexuality or even temptation. The biggest crime of the Christian church historically has been the equating our naked bodies with sin and sexuality with depravity.

 

[payattention]

If you recall that man's idea of clothing was that of fig leaves sown together for a covering, but God provided a much greater covering in giving man animal skin to wear.

Let's see. Moses was not present at the fall and he was writing an account under the influence of a full-blown civilization. Do you believe that Adam and Eve had already invented needles so they could sew? What did they use for thread? And did they really wear the skins of freshly killed animals?

 

[BigNorsk]

Let's see. Moses was not present at the fall and he was writing an account under the influence of a full-blown civilization. Do you believe that Adam and Eve had already invented needles so they could sew? What did they use for thread? And did they really wear the skins of freshly killed animals?

I don't understand why you are so hostile. People here are trying to figure out what happened and why on the basis of believing that the Bible, including the Genesis account are true. You seem to start from the idea that it is false and should be rejected as ridiculous.

Am I correct? Would you please explain why you think they felt shame since you seem to know everyone else is so wrong? Thank you in advance.

Marv