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Clock evolution

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archaeologist

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So, please post what you think.

someone mentioned in another thread that we do not use clockworks any more. seeing the title of this thread i thought it would address that topic.

i was surprised but i would like to turn this thread into a discussion of the advancement of clocks and time, if there are any knowledgeable people out there willing to describe the changes and why they made them.

this is a quest to learn more, not to point anything out or attack it.
 
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theIdi0t

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i was surprised but i would like to turn this thread into a discussion of the advancement of clocks and time, if there are any knowledgeable people out there willing to describe the changes and why they made them..

uhm...to keep track of time?? :scratch:
 
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Deamiter

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To answer archaeologists' question, we've moved away from clockworks due primarily to market forces. Tiny gears, springs and pendulums (or wound springs for watches) are difficult to produce and just as difficult to repair. Circuit boards are incredibly cheap to make these days and after a few decades of work, can now be much more accurate than the best mechanical clock. They aren't always better since less accurate watches will always cost less to make, but who really cares if their watch gains or loses a few seconds a year? Further, with digital watches, features are vastly easier and cheaper to include -- a mechanical watch with a timer and a second time-zone setting would cost hundreds whereas it can be implemented in a digital watch for a couple bucks.

You can still buy mechanical watches and there are still some people who make their living building and repairing the mechanical insides, but they cater primarily to the rich and those with heirlooms since the vast majority of us prefer the cheapest with the most functions, digital dominates.

As to the OP, the program is genius and I wish the code was readable so I could play with it myself! The first thing that struck me was how few parameters were fixed. Unlike many other simulations, there are a number of different pieces that can all be copied and adjusted. I'm particularly curious how he represented the variable number of pieces in matrix form (more a coding curiosity than a conceptual issue).

What I'd really like to see would be a changing environment. I'd love to run this program on a cluster and have different populations evolve to different time standards (i.e. 70 seconds per minute rather than 60 etc...). In fact, if you produced multiple time standards in a single 'environment' you could even simulate overlapping niches and have multiple populations competing for some of the same resources. As an example, if you had 40 s/min and 90 min/hr as one niche, and then 80 s/min and 45 min/hr as a second niche, you could potentially get two different populations that were coexisting and yet still competing for the 1-hour 'resources.'

Getting the balance right so that one population didn't out-compete the other would be tricky, but unfortunately I think the biggest problem would be computation time as these simulations apparently took a few weeks.

Ultimately, if the environment (ratio of sec/min/hr) were shifted at slightly trending speeds, I would be curious to see if you could reproduce a significant increase in complexity. The actual design would become more important and preserving a varity of designs (i.e. different mutations non-coding DNA that can be activated later) would allow some populations to be more successful in changing environments. Of course more gears would also help with adaptation though I'm not sure if there's a biological analog to high complexity in the clocks that also increases adaptability.
 
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Assyrian

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i would like to turn this thread into a discussion of the advancement of clocks and time
19.jpg
 
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archaeologist

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we've moved away from clockworks due primarily to market forces. Tiny gears, springs and pendulums (or wound springs for watches) are difficult to produce and just as difficult to repair. Circuit boards are incredibly cheap to make these days and after a few decades of work, can now be much more accurate than the best mechanical clock. They aren't always better since less accurate watches will always cost less to make, but who really cares if their watch gains or loses a few seconds a year? Further, with digital watches, features are vastly easier and cheaper to include -- a mechanical watch with a timer and a second time-zone setting would cost hundreds whereas it can be implemented in a digital watch for a couple bucks

in other words, they just swapped out the workings and replacing mechanisms. if that is all, then its no big deal.

i thought it might have been something important.
 
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Deamiter

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in other words, they just swapped out the workings and replacing mechanisms. if that is all, then its no big deal.

i thought it might have been something important.
Nope, not all that interesting. Now scientific time standards are extremely fascinating and have moved to measuring the number of times a particular atom oscillates (cesium IIRC, though I read articles about new experiments rather regularly). The definition of a second is now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second
wikipedia said:
Under the International System of Units, the second is currently defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.[1] This definition refers to a caesium atom at rest at a temperature of 0 K (absolute zero). The ground state is defined at zero magnetic field.[1] The second thus defined is equivalent to the ephemeris second.

This precise definition replaced the somewhat less precise definition that was much more difficult to test:
wikipedia said:
he fraction 1/31,556,925.9747 of the tropical year for 1900 January 0 at 12 hours ephemeris time.[1]
But yeah, the replacement of clockworks for circuit boards is really no big deal.
 
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archaeologist

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Under the International System of Units, the second is currently defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.[1] This definition refers to a caesium atom at rest at a temperature of 0 K (absolute zero). The ground state is defined at zero magnetic field.[1] The second thus defined is equivalent to the ephemeris second.

isn't this just being anal?
 
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Deamiter

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isn't this just being anal?
You might be able to make the case that much of basic science is involved with "just being anal."

In truth, no it's not. For the past two years, I've been working with a laser that emits pulses just 50 femtoseconds long. That's 50 times 10^-15 seconds and you could fit over five thousand of my laser pulses into a single transition of that cesium atom.

Why do you care? Well you personally probably don't, but without a way to measure such small units of time there'd be no way to work with such short laser pulses. These pulses have unique properties (which I won't get into as it's getting off topic) that can allow them to do amazing things -- like micromachining more precisely than before and welding live tissue so that it heals faster, sticks better and produces less scarring than traditional stitches.

If you consider that computers can now run at over 5,000,000,000 operations per second, we're already to the point that we need to be able to count the equivalent of a single cesium radiation period (not an accurate label but informative enough) for every single operation our computers make. In order to make computers run even faster, we simply need to be able to measure smaller and smaller units of time.

I'm not sure what the smallest unit of time measured is, but it's MUCH smaller than the units used to standardize a second. Quite simply, scientists will always strive to accurately measure smaller periods and these advances will always translate into consumer technology a few decades down the road.
 
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