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Clement of Alexander did not condemn loving homosexual monogamous relationships

Brieuse

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I have taken it upon myself to fetch the entire texts so that I cannot be accused of quoting out of context. I have highlighted the texts below in relation to the above quote
 

Brieuse

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1.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.ii.x.html

 
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Brieuse

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2.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.iii.html
 
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Brieuse

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continued

 
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Brieuse

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http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.viii.html

3.


 
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Brieuse

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1.

thou shalt not seduce boys

Not condemning loving monogamous homosexual relationships
2.

In context not out of context, Clement of Alexander is condemning anybody, homosexual or heterosexual that makes themselves appear less of a man. He cites examples such as shaving, combing hair, and using a mirror to look less like a man should.

He is not condemning loving monogamous homosexual relationships
3.

The Sodomites having, through much luxury, fallen into uncleanness, practising adultery shamelessly, and burning with insane love for boys

Clement of Alexander is telling what the sexual sin was of Sodom. Burning with insane love for boys is not a loving monogamous homosexual relationship.
 
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Brieuse

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Now, why would the words "Insane love for boys" be used by Clement of Alexander?
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/religion/judeochristian/bible.txt
 
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Brieuse

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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]I have taken it upon myself to fetch the entire texts so that I cannot be accused of quoting out of context. I have highlighted the texts below in relation to the above quote[/SIZE]

here is B's 1st post in this thread, followed by several pages of quotation from Clement. He wishes to not be charged with quoting out of context. Yeah right!

In this post he quotes 3 words from one sentence then summarizes part of one paragraph in one sentence, ignores ALL the accompanying text and in one big phony pretext acts like the only thing Clement said was these 2 sentences


Now for the TRUTH! B would have us believe that the ONLY thing Clement said was "burning with insane love of Boys."

I also see e.g. "Men play the part of women", "women that of men,""women are at once wives and husbands:""the giving of the body to feminine purposes, contrary to the law of nature,""effeminacy of conduct."

But B couldn't see any of that. We aren't going to get any honesty and integrity here.

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book III [153 - 217 AD]

The fate of the Sodomites was judgment to those who had done wrong, instruction to those who hear. The Sodomites having, through much luxury, fallen into uncleanness, practicing adultery shamelessly, and burning with insane love for boys; the All-seeing Word, whose notice those who commit impieties cannot escape, cast His eye on them. . . .Accordingly, the just punishment of the Sodomites became to men an image of the salvation which is well calculated for men.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html

Clement of Alexandria Exhortation To The Heathen

And what are the laws? “Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not seduce boys; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not bear false witness; thou shalt love the Lord thy God.” And the complements of these are those laws of reason and words of sanctity which are inscribed on men’s hearts: “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; to him who strikes thee on the cheek, present also the other;” “thou shalt not lust, for by lust alone thou hast committed adultery.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.ii.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

But life has reached this pitch of licentiousness through the wantonness of wickedness, and lasciviousness is diffused over the cities, having become law. Beside them women stand in the stews, offering their own flesh for hire for lewd pleasure, and boys, taught to deny their sex, act the part of women. Luxury has deranged all things; it has disgraced man. A luxurious niceness seeks everything, attempts everything, forces everything, coerces nature. Men play the part of women, and women that of men, contrary to nature; women are at once wives and husbands: no passage is closed against libidinousness; [i.e. every possible body orifice is used for “lechery”/“libidinousness.”] and their promiscuous lechery is a public institution, and luxury is domesticated.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.i.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor - Pedagogos Book 3
Chapter 3
Against Men Who Embellish Themselves


Such was predicted of old, and the result is notorious: the whole earth has now become full of fornication and wickedness. I admire the ancient legislators of the Romans: these detested effeminacy of conduct; and the giving of the body to feminine purposes, contrary to the law of nature, they judged worthy of the extremest penalty, according to the righteousness of the law.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html

 
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Der Alte

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Then we have a long quote from a rubbish 20th century homosexual book which has ABSOLUTELY no evidence for any of the assumptions and presuppositions it spews.
 
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Der Alte

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Another book written by a homosexual. Guesses, assumption, presupposition, speculation, NO, NONE, ZERO lexical or grammatical evidence and the homosexuals who scribble this putrid offscouring would rather die than actually consult a Hebrew source.

From the time of Moses, ca. 1200 BC, the Talmudic scholars interpreted the scriptures as condemning ALL homosexuals acts; by ALL persons, male and female; in ALL places, under ALL circumstance, at ALL times, NO exceptions.

The Talmudic scholars did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,” “temple prostitution,” pagan temples and/or religious activities!

And OBTW one of my citations was written by a Lesbian.
Talmud -- Sanhedrin 54a

MISHNAH. HE WHO COMMITS SODOMY WITH A MALE OR A BEAST, AND A WOMAN THAT COMMITS BESTIALITY ARE STONED
. . . . Our Rabbis taught: If a man lieth also with mankind, as the lyings of a woman,29 both of them have committed on abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them,]. . . [Note: All upper case appears in the original]

Sanhedrin 54b

This teaches the punishment: whence do we derive the formal prohibition? — From the verse, Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.[sup]1[/sup] . . . whence do we know a formal prohibition for the person who permits himself thus to be abused? — Scripture saith: There shall be no sodomite of the sons of Israel:[sup]2[sup] and it is further said, . . .

Now, he who [actively] commits pederasty, and also [passively] permits himself to be thus abused — R. Abbahu said: On R. Ishmael's view, he is liable to two penalties, one [for the injunction] derived from thou shalt not lie with mankind, and the other for [violating the prohibition,] There shall not be a Sodomite of the sons of Israel. . . .

for there shall be no Sodomite applies to sodomy with mankind. [sup]13[/sup] . . .

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Jewish Encyclopedia - Dog

The shamelessness of the dog in regard to sexual life gave rise to the name ("dog") for the class of priests in the service of Astarte who practised sodomy ("kedeshim," called also by the Greeks &#954;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#943;&#948;&#959;&#953;, Deut. xxiii. 19 [A. V. 18]; compare ib. 18 [17] and Rev. xxii. 15; see Driver ad loc.), . . .(see "C. I. S." i., No. 86).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=415&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Chastity

(e) The unnatural crimes against chastity, sodomy and pederasty, prevalent in heathendom, were strictly prohibited (Lev. xviii. 22, 23; xx. 13, 15, 16; Deut. xxvii. 21).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=386&letter=C

Jewish Encyclopedia - DIDACHE -

Dependence upon Jewish Custom.


2: "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Ex. xx. 14). (This includes: "Thou shalt not commit sodomy nor fornication.") "Thou shalt not steal" (Ex. xx. 15). . . .

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=341&letter=D

Jewish Encyclopedia - Crime

In three cases the person on the point of committing a crime may be killed: where he pursues a neighbor in order to kill him; where he pursues a male to commit sodomy;

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=301&letter=L

Jewish Encyclopedia - The 613 Commandments,: 3347-53.

Adultery, sodomy, etc. Lev. Xviii. 7, 14, 20, 22, 23.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=689&letter=C

"We Can't Legitimate Homosexuality Halakhically" (USCJ Review, Spring 2004): Joel Roth

The two verses in the book of (Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) which deal with homosexuality are really quite clear, despite the efforts of some to call their clarity into question. (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 absolutely forbid homosexual intercourse between males. The Rabbis, in the Sifra (Aharei Mot 9:8), also understand the Torah to forbid lesbianism. The Torah’s prohibitions, let it be clear, are against actions, like male homosexual intercourse, not against fantasies or attractions.

The Torah and the Rabbis do not distinguish between types of homosexuals in any way... The Rabbis were well able to conceive of monogamous and loving relationships between members of the same sex, and I quote in my paper the texts that prove this beyond reasonable question. But their words cannot possibly be read to imply that such monogamous or loving gay relationships are in a different halakhic [Jewish legal] category than any other relationships between members of the same sex. The prohibition is clear and total.”​

http://www.uscj.org/POINTRoth6331.html

Naomi Grossman, freelance journalist, states in her April 2001 article in Moment Magazine, "The Gay Orthodox Undergound":

"The Torah strictly forbids homosexual sex, and rabbis have consistently upheld that prohibition through the ages... The prohibition against homosexual sex comes from Leviticus: 'Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence' (18:22). In biblical times, the punishment for violating that code was clear. 'If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death -— their bloodguilt is upon them' (Leviticus 20:13). The Talmud extends the prohibition to lesbian sex [Hilchot Issurei Bi'ah 21:8]."

Official Orthodoxy makes no distinction between the sex act, which the Torah flatly prohibits, and homosexuality as a sexual identity.
"Homosexuality is not a state of being in traditional Judaism; it's an act," Freundel says. "Desires are … not relevant."​

http://members.aol.com/gayjews/moment.html
 
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B

brightmorningstar

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Dear Brieuse,
The text says the men of Sodom, both young and old surrounded the house and demanded to know carnally the men in Lot's house.
We know the visitors in Lots house were angels but evidently the men of Sodom didnt.
We dont know whether their orientation was heterosexual or homosexual, but I assume from the fact they wanted sex with the men they were homosexual or bi-sexual. but your cited statement is right we dont know, this is the problem with esisegis and adding modern cultural assumptions to the text and context just to try and prove a point.

the rest of the assumptions are built upon assumptions.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Precisely what is out of context? I posted almost the entire chapters.[/SIZE]

And you don't know the answer to this question? I clearly showed you how your "summary" was out-of-context. You did quote several pages of Clement, in about 3 posts, standing alone with no reference or commentary by you. Then at the end you quoted 3 words from one sentence, and summarized one paragraph in one sentence, IGNORED all of the rest of the accompanying text and stated that the only thing Clement was condemning was ."insane love of boys" and men shaving, etc."

Can you even see my posts? Can you read them? I quote enough of a paragraph so some context is evident, and even highlighted certain words and phrases.

You evidently can't even see these words in your own quotes, "Men play the part of women", "women that of men,""women are at once wives and husbands:""the giving of the body to feminine purposes, contrary to the law of nature,""effeminacy of conduct."

Since you ignored these words which contradict your assumptions/presuppositions how can you even ask what is out of context?
 
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Der Alte

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Your post consists of assumptions upon assumptions, but some of us do know and have actually studied this topic and can show from the writings of the Hebrew scholars from the time of Moses to the present and the writings of the early church, first 300 years, not your imagined "esisegis [sic] and adding modern cultural assumptions" that the ancients clearly knew what the sin of Sodom was.

Let us look at Jude, for example.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jud 1:7 &#969;&#962; 5613 ADV &#963;&#959;&#948;&#959;&#956;&#945; 4670 N-NPN &#954;&#945;&#953; 2532 CONJ &#947;&#959;&#956;&#959;&#961;&#961;&#945; 1116 N-NSF &#954;&#945;&#953; 2532 CONJ &#945;&#953; 3588 T-NPF &#960;&#949;&#961;&#953; 4012 PREP &#945;&#965;&#964;&#945;&#962; 846 P-APF &#960;&#959;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#962; 4172 N-NPF &#964;&#959;&#957; 3588 T-ASM &#959;&#956;&#959;&#953;&#959;&#957; 3664 A-ASM &#964;&#959;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; 5125 D-DPM &#964;&#961;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#957; 5158 N-ASM &#949;&#954;&#960;&#959;&#961;&#957;&#949;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#963;&#945;&#953; 1608 V-AAP-NPF &#954;&#945;&#953; 2532 CONJ &#945;&#960;&#949;&#955;&#952;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#953; 565 V-2AAP-NPF &#959;&#960;&#953;&#963;&#969; 3694 ADV &#963;&#945;&#961;&#954;&#959;&#962; 4561 N-GSF &#949;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#945;&#962; 2087 A-GSF &#960;&#961;&#959;&#954;&#949;&#953;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953;4295 V-PNI-3P &#948;&#949;&#953;&#947;&#956;&#945;1164 N-ASN &#960;&#965;&#961;&#959;&#962;4442 N-GSN &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#965;166 A-GSN &#948;&#953;&#954;&#951;&#957;1349 N-ASF &#965;&#960;&#949;&#967;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#953;5254 V-PAP-NPF
The verbs translated “giving themselves over to fornication” i.e. &#949;&#954;&#960;&#959;&#961;&#957;&#949;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#963;&#945;&#953; and “going after,” i.e. &#945;&#960;&#949;&#955;&#952;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#953; are AAP and 2AAP, respectively, aorist, active, participle, an action began in the past continuing into the future. God knew of Sodom's sins when he talked with Abraham before going to Sodom. The perverts of Sodom were prevented from completing any action against the angels, by blindness, and certainly did not do anything with any flesh afterward.

From the time Moses delivered the law, to the Israelites, ca. 1200 BC, until the present, Jewish scholars interpreted the O.T. scriptures as condemning ALL same gender sex acts; by ALL persons, male and female; at ALL times, in ALL places, and under ALL circumstances, NO exceptions or exclusions. The early church fathers also interpreted the N.T. scriptures as condemning ALL homosexual acts, with NO exceptions or exclusions.

The ancient Jewish scholars and the ECF did NOT even mention, and did NOT limit the condemnation of homosexual acts to, “homosexual rape,”“temple prostitution,”“enslaved boy prostitutes,”“effete, jaded Roman nobles,” pagan temples and/or pagan religious activities!

Recent posts: Evidence from Talmud, and other ancient Jewish writings, Link

Evidence from early church fathers, Link

This evidence spans approximately 1500 years of church history, from 1200 BC through 300 AD.
 
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Brieuse

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Der Alter, you are posting off topic.

I am referring specifically to Clement of Alexander. Be patient, it took me long enough to make this topic, and I shall get to the others. I promise.

I have read through his entire chapters. You are making several conclusions out of nothing. He spoke about men with boys and he spoke about men who make themselves "pretty" for other men and women. Nothing, absolutely nothing, nada about loving monogamous homosexual relationships.

Go back read the chapters. The only way you can come to any conclusion that it is referring to homosexual men and their nature in the entirety is by taking a symbolic/non-literal approach to the chapters. That approach I have been condemned by this forum in general for taking.

The evidence is all there, for you to read. Now, specifically, where in the chapters written by Clement of Alexander were homosexuals condemned in their entirety?
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Der Alter, you are posting off topic.

I am referring specifically to Clement of Alexander. Be patient, it took me long enough to make this topic, and I shall get to the others. I promise.[/SIZE]

I wasn't talking to you. You are not the only person posting in this thread. Don't bother addressing any of the other fathers.


You keep repeating the same out-of-context two points and keep ignoring the rest of writing.

I am aware that Clement addressed men with boys and men who "embellish" themselves, but surely you cannot be so blind that you cannot see he addressed the other points I posted. If you cannot read and understand what I posted there is no point in continuing I see no point in talking to a wall.


You go back and read, I quoted several sections IN CONTEXT, there is nothing symbolic about them, you keep ignoring them because they blow your assumptions and presuppositions completely away.

[SIZE=-1]The evidence is all there, for you to read. Now, specifically, where in the chapters written by Clement of Alexander were homosexuals condemned in their entirety?[/SIZE]

Even dave's cut/paste from homosexuals-&#1103;-us.com® in this thread "False Translation of the word "homosexual" - 1 Cor 6:9" admits that Clement condemns homosexuality and even calls him homophobic. Specifically Post #103

Isn't husband and wife a loving monogamous relationship? Now tell me you can't see that?

[SIZE=+1]Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book III [153 - 217 AD]

The fate of the Sodomites was judgment to those who had done wrong, instruction to those who hear. The Sodomites having, through much luxury, fallen into uncleanness, practicing adultery shamelessly, and burning with insane love for boys; the All-seeing Word, whose notice those who commit impieties cannot escape, cast His eye on them. . . .Accordingly, the just punishment of the Sodomites became to men an image of the salvation which is well calculated for men.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html

Clement of Alexandria Exhortation To The Heathen

And what are the laws? “Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not seduce boys; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not bear false witness; thou shalt love the Lord thy God.” And the complements of these are those laws of reason and words of sanctity which are inscribed on men’s hearts: “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; to him who strikes thee on the cheek, present also the other;” “thou shalt not lust, for by lust alone thou hast committed adultery.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.ii.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

But life has reached this pitch of licentiousness through the wantonness of wickedness, and lasciviousness is diffused over the cities, having become law. Beside them women stand in the stews, offering their own flesh for hire for lewd pleasure, and boys, taught to deny their sex, act the part of women. Luxury has deranged all things; it has disgraced man. A luxurious niceness seeks everything, attempts everything, forces everything, coerces nature. Men play the part of women, and women that of men, contrary to nature; women are at once wives and husbands: no passage is closed against libidinousness; [i.e. every possible body orifice is used for “lechery”/“libidinousness.”] and their promiscuous lechery is a public institution, and luxury is domesticated.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.i.html

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor - Pedagogos Book 3
Chapter 3
Against Men Who Embellish Themselves


Such was predicted of old, and the result is notorious: the whole earth has now become full of fornication and wickedness. I admire the ancient legislators of the Romans: these detested effeminacy of conduct; and the giving of the body to feminine purposes, contrary to the law of nature, they judged worthy of the extremest penalty, according to the righteousness of the law.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html
[/SIZE]​
 
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davedjy

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More false doctrine quoting from you!


MYTH #2: The Old Testament teaches that God destroyed an entire city because of homosexuality.

FACT: Even a cursory reading of the story of Sodom in Genesis 18 &19 makes this myth ludicrous. First of all, in Genesis Chapter 18, God appears to have decided to destroy the city before the infamous "homosexual" act with angels was attempted.

However, God promised Abraham that He would not destroy the city if there were at least 10 righteous people (gender is not specified) living within its city limits (Gen 18:32). The fact that the city was destroyed means that not even 10 righteous people, male or female, could be found. To assume that every remaining person was a homosexual is absurd. In Chapter 19, verses 4 and 5, we are told that "the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, &#8216;Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out that we may know them.&#8217;" The NRSV says "the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. The idea that every single man in the entire city was a homosexual is preposterous.

Furthermore, in over 40 references to Sodom in the Scriptures, not one of these makes specific reference to homosexuality. If homosexuality were the "sin of Sodom," you would think that there would be at least one! In fact, there is one very specific reference to what Sodom&#8217;s sin actually was: Ezekiel 16:49,50 says, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen" (NIV). If homosexuality was the "sin of Sodom," this was Ezekiel&#8217;s perfect opportunity to declare that fact and he blew it!

http://www.opendoorcenter.com/myths_&_facts.htm
 
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davedjy

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Strange flesh


In like manner the entire male population of Sodom (physical beings) wanted to rape these angelic messengers (spiritual beings). This was something that not only was a horrific crime but like Jude, out of the natural order of things. We can only imagine the supernatural power such spiritual beings have. Who is mortal man to stand in their way if God did not restrain them, or us, from such liaisons? We can only speculate that the men of Sodom hoped to receive some sort of supernatural power from these unearthly visitors by raping them. Remember - the primary religions of the day were the fertility cults that believed, as part of their religious rites, that sexual relations with another somehow conveyed a portion of that person&#8217;s strength and power to you. In the case of temple prostitutes, having sex with one would convey to the participant a blessing from the god the temple prostitute was a proxy for.

http://gaychurch.org/Gay_and_Christian_YES/7f%20-%20gac%20-%20clobber%20pasasges%20-%20strange%20flesh%20(1).htm
 
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