Clean and unclean meat

[k4c]

I have been going back and forth regarding clean and unclean meat so I was led to seek a more clearer understanding.

We know form Scripture that death and killing was not part of God's original plan nor was eating meat but as time moved forward circumstances changed.

After the flood God allowed the eating of animals probably due to the fact that all the vegetation was destroyed by the flood. But even before this God made a distinction between clean and unclean animals.

So my question is this. Do we still make the distinction between clean and unclean meats?

The conclusion I came to is yes we do make that distinction and here is why.

God calls us to be holy as He is holy.

1 Peter 1:15-16 But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.''

When the Bible says, "It is written" it's referring to something that God had said in the OT. The reference to us being holy as God is holy in the OT was in the context of abstaining from unclean animals.

Leviticus 11:44-47 `For I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creeping thing that creeps on the earth. `For I am the Lord who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. `This is the law of the beasts and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth, `To distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.' ''

It seems to me that the NT sanctification process will involve our sprit, soul and body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The sanctification of our spirit is referring to the disposition of our minds.

Ephesians 4:23 Be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

In this we will have a better outlook on life and begin to see things as hopeful just as God sees them. The sanctification of our soul is referring to our character.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

We use to steal, lie, forget the Sabbath and so on as a life style but now we have been washed.

The sanctification of our bodies is that we now care for them by the standard God set for His sons and daughters.

2 Corinthians 6:17-18 Therefore "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you.'' "I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.''

There are some verses that seem to say that unclean meat is not the issue for example Romans 14:14.

Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Our English translations sometimes bring more confusion than understanding.

There are two words in the original language used for unclean. One is the word, koinos, which refers to something as being common. In other words, the meat was unclean because of the conscience of the person as seen in meat sacrificed to idols. We know the idol is nothing so the meat is clean but some believe it's not because it was sacrificed to an idol. This is a conscience issue and not a commandment issue.

The second word used for the same word, unclean, is the word, akathartos. This word refers to an animal that is unclean by nature, this cannot be changed.

Peter used both these words in the same sentence.

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.''

Many times our English translations use the English word, unclean, for both "Akathartos" and "Koinos". I believe this has led to much confusion.

The word, unclean, in Romans 14:14 is the word , koinos, and is referring to meats that were unclean based of the conscience of the person and not by a commandment of God. This is why Paul makes the statement, "To him who considers anything to be unclean (Koinos), to him it is unclean (Koinos)". He makes this statement based on the word, Koinos, because it deals with the conscience of the person and not a command of God.

Common meats or koinos meats were meats that were determined to be unclean by the conscience, rather than, by God. This could mean all meat is unclean (Koinos) to some people because of conscience. You can find this with animal lovers and some SDA's.

It seems to me that all the arguments in the NT, regarding eating unclean animals, revolved around the word, Koinos. These arguments are based on conscience issues rather than commandment issues.

Unclean (Akathartos) animals are still viewed by God as unclean. He refers to them as being unclean all throughout the NT. For example, "Don't cast your pearls before swine" "Every hated and unclean bird". Even when Jesus had no food to feed 5000 people He still cast the demons into the herd of swine and caused them all to run off a cliff and die.

In all this it still boils down to motive. Are we doing these things because we love the God who saved us and lives in us or are we just perfoming self righteous acts that cause us to look down on others for not doing the same?

Luke 18:10-14 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, `God, I thank You that I am not like other men extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. `I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, `God be merciful to me a sinner!' "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be abased, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.''

Now in all this, we are not to make this a health issue but rather it's more of a holiness issue pertaining to obedience. I can be in top physical condition and eat a ham sandwich and still be wrong in God's eyes because it's the act of eating the unclean meat, not the health consequence of eating it.

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[Avonia]

k4c, you should do what feels right to you.

I personally don't eat meat. Not because of what the Bible or Ellen White suggests, I don't like the idea of killing animals when it's not necessary. But I have zero judgments about those who make a different choice.

Things have changed a lot - just in the last 100 years. We have so many issues we've never had before. Growth hormones in our food. Antibiotics. Chemicals and heavy metals in the ocean. Fertilizers. Pesticides. To say nothing of fast food.

I don't think it matters one way or the other whether you eat "unclean meats" in terms of following a code. But I do think it's increasingly essential that we pay attention to what we eat.

The two best sources of information on this are science and what your body is telling you.

Eat well!

 

[Cribstyl]

k4c, you should do what feels right to you.

I personally don't eat meat. Not because of what the Bible or Ellen White suggests, I don't like the idea of killing animals when it's not necessary. But I have zero judgments about those who make a different choice.

Things have changed a lot - just in the last 100 years. We have so many issues we've never had before. Growth hormones in our food. Antibiotics. Chemicals and heavy metals in the ocean. Fertilizers. Pesticides. To say nothing of fast food.

I don't think it matters one way or the other whether you eat "unclean meats" in terms of following a code. But I do think it's increasingly essential that we pay attention to what we eat.

The two best sources of information on this are science and what your body is telling you.

Eat well!

That's good advice.

 

[k4c]

k4c, you should do what feels right to you.

I personally don't eat meat. Not because of what the Bible or Ellen White suggests, I don't like the idea of killing animals when it's not necessary. But I have zero judgments about those who make a different choice.

Things have changed a lot - just in the last 100 years. We have so many issues we've never had before. Growth hormones in our food. Antibiotics. Chemicals and heavy metals in the ocean. Fertilizers. Pesticides. To say nothing of fast food.

I don't think it matters one way or the other whether you eat "unclean meats" in terms of following a code. But I do think it's increasingly essential that we pay attention to what we eat.

The two best sources of information on this are science and what your body is telling you.

Eat well!

That is good advice but it seems to me that God says somethings are just not to be eaten in the same way drinking to excess is forbidden.

 

[Avonia]

That is good advice but it seems to me that God says somethings are just not to be eaten in the same way drinking to excess is forbidden.

If it seems that way to you, then it would be wise for you to avoid those things.

 

[k4c]

If it seems that way to you, then it would be wise for you to avoid those things.

These things can't just be how someone feels. There has to be some foundational stand point otherwise everything just becomes relavant.

 

[Avonia]

These things can't just be how someone feels. There has to be some foundational stand point otherwise everything just becomes relavant.

My position is that there's no reason for a code now. We have science. The Children of Israel did not.

If your position is that we are still bound by the code, then follow it. But the code is not especially useful in knowing more broadly what's best for our health. Science is ideally suited for this. We have an advantage that most people over the history of the planet did not.

 

[Restin]

I have been going back and forth regarding clean and unclean meat so I was led to seek a more clearer understanding....

Leviticus 11:44-47 ...`For I am the Lord who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy...' ''

Compare with...

Jermiah 23:7-8

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth,
which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the
seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all
countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. KJV

There are some verses that seem to say that unclean meat is not the issue for example Romans 14:14.

Romans 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Our English translations sometimes bring more confusion than understanding.

AND....gets worse yet, when we lean on the words of uninspired men rather than scripture to explain itself.

Luke 18:10-14 .... "everyone who exalts himself will be abased, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.''

Now in all this, we are not to make this a health issue but rather it's more of a holiness issue pertaining to obedience. I can be in top physical condition and eat a ham sandwich and still be wrong in God's eyes because it's the act of eating the unclean meat, not the health consequence of eating it.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren,
that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. KJV

 

[k4c]

Compare with...

Jermiah 23:7-8

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth,
which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the
seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all
countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. KJV

AND....gets worse yet, when we lean on the words of uninspired men rather than scripture to explain itself.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren,
that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. KJV

The distinction between clean and unclean came long before Moses.

 

[k4c]

My position is that there's no reason for a code now. We have science. The Children of Israel did not.

If your position is that we are still bound by the code, then follow it. But the code is not especially useful in knowing more broadly what's best for our health. Science is ideally suited for this. We have an advantage that most people over the history of the planet did not.

Science only confirms what God said before science came to be.

 

[Cribstyl]

It seems to me, from your going back and forth about clean and unclean meats, some of your conclussions are somewhat questionable.

You've got it right to say that men originally were vegetarians.

You dont have it right about what God said after the flood, because the distinction of the clean animals was made for sacrificial purposes not for what men would be commanded to eat after the flood.

Let's take a look at the scriptures.
Here are the texts that proves that all the animals on the ark were considered in the equation when God rendered His decree about what meats to eat.

Yes, God did make the distinction between clean and unclean animals.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.
Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.


This issue seems to be the first major event as Noah and his family left the ark.
Gen 8:18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
Gen 8:19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, [and] whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark. (here every animal is called out of the ark)

Gen 8:20¶And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. (the fact that every clean animal is called out to be sacrificed, does make it clear that the following text does not mean nor forgotten to mention that man would eat only these same clean animals)

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Gen 9:1¶And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

I posted all the verses involved.
Distinction is clear of what is sacrificed to God and what God authorized or commanded for man to eat.

I'm not defending eating pork or other animals, I'm trying to make the scriptures true rather than fabricated to support commentary.

Yes. When God chose to dwell among and make the Chidren of Israel His people, His controlled everything about them including; where they live, what they wore, what they ate and drank, who they married and more.
We dont need to add to prophetic writings.
Let the word of God be true.

 

[Cribstyl]

Science only confirms what God said before science came to be.

That's true but how do you explain away the ages of dinasaurs which science claim happened in what they understand as the first days of creation?

 

[Korewanandesuka]

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[Korewanandesuka]

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[k4c]

It seems to me, from your going back and forth about clean and unclean meats, some of your conclussions are somewhat questionable.

You've got it right to say that men originally were vegetarians.

You dont have it right about what God said after the flood, because the distinction of the clean animals were for made sacrificial purposes.

Let's take a look at the scriptures.
Here are the texts that proves that all the animals on the ark were considered in the equation when God rendered His decree about what meats to eat.

Yes, God did make the distinction between clean and unclean animals.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.
Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.


This issue seems to be the first event to deal with as Noah and his family left the ark.
Gen 8:18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
Gen 8:19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, [and] whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark. (here every animal is called out of the ark)

Gen 8:20¶And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. (the fact that every clean animal is called out to be sacrificed, does make it clear that the following text does not mean nor forgot to mention that man would eat only these same clean animals)

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Gen 9:1¶And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.


Distinction is clear of what is sacrificed to God and what God authorized or commanded for man to eat.

I'm not defending eating pork or other animals, I'm just trying to make the scriptures true rather than fabricated to fit questionable doctrines.

Yes. When God chose to dwell among and make the Chidren of Israel His people, His controlled everything about them including; where they live, what they ate and drank, who the married and more. We dont need to add to prophetic writings.
Let the word of God be true.

The fact that God calls something unclean should raise a red flag as to its goodness.I believe God allowed man to eat all things after the flood due to the lack of vegetaion. But as years moved forward God set His standard for His people in the same way incest was allowed in years past but as years moved forward God set the standard for His people.

 

[k4c]

That's true but how do you explain away the ages of dinasaurs which science claim happened in what they understand as the first days of creation?

Dinosaurs are of a similar nature as lizards. Lizards never stop growing, they continue growing their entire life. Due to the fact that creatures lived much longer than they do now these dinosaurs/lizards had many years to grow to the size they came to be. There are many old cave drawings showing man and dinosaurs dwelling together. The book of Job discribes what we know today as a dinosaure.

 

[Cribstyl]

The fact that God calls something unclean should raise a red flag as to its goodness.I believe God allowed man to eat all things after the flood due to the lack of vegetaion. But as years moved forward God set His standard for His people in the same way incest was allowed in years past but as years moved forward God set the standard for His people.

My first point is, you have heard all the commentary that make these same scriptures seem to say differently, that God would not allow or intend for men to eat unclean animals.

#2 Your conclussion is a point of reason that underminds what God actually say in His word. Why have a bible if we can reason away what God says?

 

[k4c]

My first point is, you have heard all the commentary that make these same scriptures seem to say differently, that God would not allow or intend for men to eat unclean animals.

#2 Your conclussion is a point of reason that underminds what God actually say in His word. Why have a bible if we can reason away what God says?

I came to my conclusion through reading the Bible, not commentaries. If God calls something unclean it's not rocket science.

 

[StormyOne]

So, the Egyptians, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Persians, and Babylonians didn't have science?

If I remember correctly, the Egyptians built a series of pyramids that are geometrically precise, and point(ed) to magnetic north at that time. This is serious physics and engineering. The Incas, Aztecs, and Mayans were astronomers, and also built geologically significant pyramids.

It is very arrogant to assume we are at the pinnacle of science and technology. Science is not ideally suited: it is fickle and relies on the senses for progressive study. Not everyone worships Apollo...

It is easier to believe that somehow Satan experimented with animals and made dinosaurs that it is to believe simply that God also created dinosaurs? Interesting...

 

[Avonia]

So, the Egyptians, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Persians, and Babylonians didn't have science?

If I remember correctly, the Egyptians built a series of pyramids that are geometrically precise, and point(ed) to magnetic north at that time. This is serious physics and engineering. The Incas, Aztecs, and Mayans were astronomers, and also built geologically significant pyramids.

They were scientists. But I don't know of any evidence that any of these cultures understood the human body in a similar way we do. But I imagine that every culture understood some things we don't - that's the beauty of inquiry.

I was drawing a contrast between the time and circumstance of the Children of Israel and our time and circumstance.