Circumcision

Rose,

I agree with circumcision for my descendants. It honors our heritage. I maintain other Jewish practices too. But it may be less appealing for others.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

April_Rose said:

I'm already pretty sure that it isn't commanded today,.. but what are your thoughts on this? Pros? Cons? I haven't made up my mind yet if I have any future sons. Now unlike my infant baptism thread,.. I'm actually looking for advice about this to try and make up my mind.

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It's definitely not a command. Studies say there are health benefits, but it's done today more for cultural or medical reasons than religious ones. If it's done right, I don't see a big issue, and surveys apparently show it is preferred by women, but that benefit would come much later in life. There are risks (mostly if the knife slips!) and some men get angry later in life that they weren't consulted. That said, other men wish they had been circumcised at birth, so sometimes, you just can't win.

April_Rose said:

Have I mentioned that I'm glad I'm not a guy? I will take a period over losing one of my body parts thank you very much. At least my body is back to normal afterwards.

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Lol. Really? You realise it's only a flap of skin that is trimmed away, and not the whole body part? I don't think God would have commanded something that made life worse for Israelite men. Circumcision is done once, and then you don't need to worry about it again. Less chance of disease for the man and his future wife. Poor women have to deal with periods every month. As a guy, I would choose getting circumcised every time over being a woman!

April_Rose said:

What I want to know is how does removing a bit of skin off of your son's penis making a covenant with God in any way?

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Foreskin is probably one of the few pieces of excess skin that doesn't really make a big difference to life. So there is that aspect. Also, in ancient times when two parties would "cut a covenant", one party to the covenant would pass between the two pieces of a sacrifice. All the male's future seed would pass through the circumcision ring of the male, meaning the future offspring were in a covenant with God. Some also claim that the foreskin represents uncleanness, heart stubborness and filth of the flesh, but that might have come in after circumcision was commanded.

April_Rose said:

I'm already pretty sure that it isn't commanded today,.. but what are your thoughts on this? Pros? Cons? I haven't made up my mind yet if I have any future sons. Now unlike my infant baptism thread,.. I'm actually looking for advice about this to try and make up my mind.

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Either there are correct and incorrect reasons for someone to become circumcised and Paul was only speaking against the incorrect reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US who are circumcised.

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for why God commanded circumcision, so the problem was that it was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose for which God commanded it. So the Jerusalem Council upheld the Torah by correctly ruling against that requirement and a ruling against requiring something that God never commanded should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if the Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.

Paul said that circumcision has no value, that was matters is obeying God's commands (1 Corinthians 7:19), however, he also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2), so the issue is that circumcision has no inherent value and that is value is entirely derived from whether someone obeys the Torah (Romans 2:25). In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6).

I'm circumcised, as are my three boys.

Being in the medical field and having had to transport old men in and out facilities to the ER because of raging penile infections, was all the proof I needed that circumcision is the right thing to do. YMMV

April_Rose said:

What I want to know is how does removing a bit of skin off of your son's penis making a covenant with God in any way?

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I don’t know why it was chosen, but as in any covenant, it happens by the words that are declared for the covenant.

April_Rose said:

This doesn't really answer my question though. :\

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Sorry, but the only answer that I can see is that God said "this is the sign of the covenant". As to why he chose that act rather than anything else; you'd have to ask him.

This may explain it a bit more. The old testament rituals are a shadow of the New Covenant that Jesus is the mediator/high priest & king of:

Quoting from linked article:
God gave Abraham and his descendants the mark of circumcision as a physical reminder that they were cut out from the world, that is, set apart to serve the one, true Lord (Gen. 17:1–14).

The need for circumcision in the heart is the plain teaching of today’s passage. Jeremiah was sent to preach to the covenant community of Israel and call the people to repent and turn from their idolatry — refusal to recognize God’s rightful ownership of them. In Jeremiah 4:1–4, the prophet reminds the people that they cannot rightfully trust in the mark of circumcision for covenant blessings; rather, they have to experience the inner reality of a circumcised heart that the circumcision in their flesh is to signify. The Lord’s covenant of salvation has always been a covenant of the heart.

April_Rose said:

What I want to know is how does removing a bit of skin off of your son's penis making a covenant with God in any way?

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God never bothered to give any reason(s) for it. Just as He gave no reasons for why certain kinds of foods were ritually clean while others were ritually unclean. In spite of what some people try and claim today, it has nothing to do with health or hygiene. There is nothing inherently healthier about the kinds of meat from animals that are kosher.

So all that can be said is that God established certain things for the Jewish people, to outwardly mark them as His covenant people. That is, God set them apart as a special people, and their mark as that people was the Torah which He gave them through Moses. As Christians we understand that this covenant--as with all the covenants which God established in the past--existed for the express purpose of pointing ultimately forward to Jesus Christ.

Since that is the case, there is no religious significance or purpose for things like circumcision, or eating and not eating certain foods, or what sorts of fabrics our clothing are made from, etc. Just as there is no longer any reason to offer sacrifices of grains, or bulls, or lambs in a sanctuary, or a priesthood to officiate these things--as Christ Himself is the one great High Priest who has offered Himself once as sacrifice for all, and has obtained for us entrance to the inner sanctuary of God which is found in Him--for Christ is God's Temple, and we, as His Church, are spiritual stones of that Temple. So God dwells with and in us through Christ and the Spirit--and the day is coming when this will be in the utmost fullness when God makes all things new.

There are no more sabbaths, and sacrifices, a ritual priesthood, foods and drinks of distinction, there is no more clean and unclean.

In Christ God has brought together all people, both Jew and non-Jew, as a single, undivided people whose new identity is Christian.

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called 'the uncircumcision' by what is called 'the circumcision', which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." - Ephesians 2:11-22

Jew and Gentile, together, as one new people, in Christ. The only circumcision that matters now is the circumcision made without hands, our spiritual circumcision of our heart through Baptism by which we are Christ's, for we have been baptized as Christians, and thus our identity is in Christ, we are new creations in Jesus. Having died to the former things, and now are alive to God through the resurrection life of Jesus and the indwelling and life of the Spirit who is in us, our hope and promise of that precious glory that is to come.

-CryptoLutheran

April_Rose said:

Then why did Jesus get circumcised?

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Because he was a Jewish boy, a descendant of Abraham. Had he not been circumcised he could not have gone into the temple, or synagogue.

April_Rose said:

Then why did Jesus get circumcised?

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Jesus said He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. He was born during the Old Covenant era (from the line of Judah)....and fulfilled the prophecies about Himself as Messiah...Son of Man.

But....the Old Covenant became obsolete at His death on the Cross and was soon (to that generation) going to "disappear" as written in the book of Hebrews. That happened in 70 AD (the destruction of Jerusalem/end of Sinai biblical Judaism) - about 20 years after the decision made in Acts 15.

ETA: I just read Strong In Him's post. I agree with that as well.

HARK! said:

"Thus will My covenant be marked in your flesh as an eonian covenant."

This means forever.

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All verses are ESV:

Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.
1 Corinthians 7


Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. ...
Galatians 5

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Galatians 6

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Romans 2

He[Abraham] received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
Romans 4

Sorry for jumping in so late.

April_Rose said:

I'm already pretty sure that it isn't commanded today,.. but what are your thoughts on this? Pros? Cons? I haven't made up my mind yet if I have any future sons. Now unlike my infant baptism thread,.. I'm actually looking for advice about this to try and make up my mind.

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Hey saint.

How about some advise from someone who is circumcised.

Now circumcision is not a matter of salvation or a necessary component of Grace.

Check this out.

My mum didn't mind if I was circumcised or not. My dad did.

I'am eternally grateful to my father for making sure I was circumcised.

I do not remember it happening, i do not have any disfigurement, i do not have any mental issues about it and everything works well.

I prefer the cosmetic look - saw my mates and it looked like a burnt sausage. To anyone uncircumcised, i wish u no offence.

Now check this out and please forgive me for being so blunt.

1. Removing that bit of skin will stop your son from having - i need a better term and please forgive me - cheese.

Your son will appreciate that. My mates have got to do more maintenance down there than i do and risk medical issues if they dont.

2. Circumcision makes that area less sensitive. This will make his future wife more satisfied.

3. My dad had a reason why he made sure I was circumcised. When the men of ww2 came home, the uncircumcised men had health issues downstairs due to being uncircumcised.

These issues resulted from poor hygiene. When some of these men came home, for medical reasons they had to be circumcised.

I would prefer to be circumcised as an infant then as a grown man.

Now there are ppl out there who are uncircumcised and have no medical issues. There are uncircumcised ppl out there who like What they got.

I would recommend asking ppl who are circumcised how they feel. There are medical benefits to circumcision and if done properly will not damage or disfirgure your son.

Strong in Him said:

Because he was a Jewish boy, a descendant of Abraham. Had he not been circumcised he could not have gone into the temple, or synagogue.

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I think actually worse. Jesus would not have fulfilled the law, had He not undergone circumcision, and we'd all be dead in our sins - the uncircumcision of our sinful natures - and doomed to Hell.

April_Rose said:

I wonder what happens for a toenail clipping,....

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Usually, there is less celebration, but traditionally, there is a ceremonial washing or bath before the mohel (or mohelet in these times of gender equality) takes the manicure scissors to the offending excess keratin and trims away. There usually isn't any blood or significant pain, but it does depend largely on the skill of the practitioner. It is beyond any scientific doubt that toenail clipping improves the hygiene and general well-being of the toe, although certain anti-clipping activists are applying political pressure in an effort to make the practice illegal, stating that toenail clipping harms the natural state of the toe and makes it less sensitive.

the iconoclast said:

I prefer the cosmetic look - saw my mates and it looked like a burnt sausage. To anyone uncircumcised, i wish u no offence.

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Lol. I'm not an expert, but I still remember what a young lady once said about this subject when she saw one for the first time. Apparently, her nephew had been circumcised and she said he looked cute, but when she saw another male who hadn't been, she said it was "such a shock and the ugliest thing I ever saw!"

the iconoclast said:

1. Removing that bit of skin will stop your son from having - i need a better term and please forgive me - cheese.

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The medical studies put it a little more kindly - circumcision is claimed to improve hygiene. This is also believed to be the reason male circumcision reduces risk of cervical cancer in females.

the iconoclast said:

2. Circumcision makes that area less sensitive. This will make his future wife more satisfied.

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Doesn't this also support the claim that circumcision reduces masturbation, or at least makes it more difficult?

the iconoclast said:

3. My dad had a reason why he made sure I was circumcised. When the men of ww2 came home, the uncircumcised men had health issues downstairs due to being uncircumcised.

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I think this is similar to your first point. Better hygiene leads to better longer-term health.

mkgal1 said:

Jeremiah 4
“Circumcise yourselves to the Lord; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire” (v. 4).

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Thanks for posting this verse. To me, verses like this, and Deuteronomy 10:16, are spelling out that our hearts are unclean, wicked and sinful, and need not just cleansing, but the sinful nature - the "foreskin" - actually needs to be circumcised off. If the bible speaks metaphorically of heart circumcision as being a good thing, I think it's a hard argument to make that physical circumcision is an unhealthy thing (even though it's not now required for obedience to the law).

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

April_Rose said:

I'm already pretty sure that it isn't commanded today,.. but what are your thoughts on this? Pros? Cons? I haven't made up my mind yet if I have any future sons. Now unlike my infant baptism thread,.. I'm actually looking for advice about this to try and make up my mind.

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In effect:
Circumcision is for God to leave a mark to the Jews to be His people.
Baptism is for God to leave a mark to Christians to be His people.

So basically if you are with the Jewish bloodline, you can still choose to be subject to the Jewish line of covenants after being a Christian. Coverts were accepted only before the point of John the Baptist.

Luke 16:16 (NIV2011)
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

This means in terms of salvation, the validity of the Mosaic covenant with its Law is only until John the Baptist. Since then, only the New Covenant is in place for God's salvation to be achieved. Practically this means, converts from gentiles are no longer accepted. Jews (with males marked by circumcision) can still observe the Jewish customs but not in a sense of salvation. Strictly speaking you also need to abide by whatever Mosaic Law demands you to do once you are circumcised as a Jew by bloodline. If you don't you are nothing more than a gentile.

So in order to be saved, you need to be a Christian under the New Covenant. Added on that you can be a Jew following the Mosaic covenant if you are a Jew by bloodline and have a background and culture to observe the Jewish customs.