Churchianity

[GreenMunchkin]

Have been keeping up with a really interesting thread in GA about what non-Christians would like to see in a church. Some of the reponses are predictable enough, but several are quite profound, and genuinely thought provoking.

One in particular says sitting in an ornate building that costs lots of money isn't what they would look for - they would rather sit in a circle somewhere simple, or in a park talking about God; others say more focus on community and actually reaching out to the homeless and the elderly would draw them to it because that would be a true representation of Christ's teachings.

I suppose am wondering what we can do to stem the tide of Churchianity. There was talk of coffee bars in churches, and most of the churches I know do now have that. I guess, what problems do you see with the modern church, and what - if anything - can we do to better represent Him?

 

[Henaynei]

we have a kitchen (coffee bar??) in our church where we prepare and partake community meals, and where we weekly prepare and serve dinner to the children from the community that our buses bring in on Wednesday for bible school - our whole town has less than 3000 people in it and we bring in nearly 100 children, sometimes more and recently some of their unchurched parents have been showing up in Sunday service

we also use our kitchen for things like an Appreciation 9/11 Dinner each year where we invite the police, emergency medical personnel, firemen and other such public servants who put themselves in harm's way for us throughout the year to a dinner catered and served and "waited" by our youth....

we have a Men's Breakfast once a month to build community among the men in our congregation (we have WAY more men in this congregation than I'm used to seeing in most congregations ), and we have a Women's dinner once a month to build community and support there as well....

we also prepare meals for shut-ins, the sick and those recovering from illness or surgery...

these are just some ideas on how we get the Message out there.... of what we do with our kitchen.... we do lots of other things without the kitchen too

 

[Nadiine]

There needs to be balance - I don't believe just listening to unsaved folks then implimenting everything they complain about is the right way to go either.

Joel Osteen comes to mind.

People who go should feel LED BY GOD to go there to hear a message from God becuz God is working in their heart. If they're going becuz of fluff and entertainment and convenience you've lost the point.

What did Jesus do?? He didn't go to the local cushy places & show films &
pull bunny rabbits out of magic hats in his black cape.

This is part of the problem with church, we're practically begging people to show up using gimmicks & jumping thru hoops to beg them to enter the door.

When God is working in a soul, they will WANT to show up becuz of the word they're seeking; God provides a spiritual hunger they seek to fill while He draws them.
That's how it worked for me. One week I felt SO empty, I just went to a local Baptist church one Sunday morning & just hearing that message felt SOOOOOOOOOOOOo nice.
I walked right back out after the service and didn't meet or greet anybody - they were welcoming and kind and I just left.

What HAS to be focused on is God's word and our warm welcomes to newcomers. If the message is off, then all the amount of coffee bars & movies & circus shows doesn't mean anything.

 

[Nadiine]

we have a kitchen (coffee bar??) in our church where we prepare and partake community meals, and where we weekly prepare and serve dinner to the children from the community that our buses bring in on Wednesday for bible school - our whole town has less than 3000 people in it and we bring in nearly 100 children, sometimes more and recently some of their unchurched parents have been showing up in Sunday service

we also use our kitchen for things like an Appreciation 9/11 Dinner each year where we invite the police, emergency medical personnel, firemen and other such public servants who put themselves in harm's way for us throughout the year to a dinner catered and served and "waited" by our youth....

we have a Men's Breakfast once a month to build community among the men in our congregation (we have WAY more men in this congregation than I'm used to seeing in most congregations ), and we have a Women's dinner once a month to build community and support there as well....

we also prepare meals for shut-ins, the sick and those recovering from illness or surgery...

these are just some ideas.... of what we do with our kitchen.... we do lots of other things without the kitchen too

Our church has lots of ministries like this too and we're happy to be a part of it
I think this is what churches should be doing (which is why we should be giving to a local church imo)

 

[Zecryphon]

Have been keeping up with a really interesting thread in GA about what non-Christians would like to see in a church. Some of the reponses are predictable enough, but several are quite profound, and genuinely thought provoking.

One in particular says sitting in an ornate building that costs lots of money isn't what they would look for - they would rather sit in a circle somewhere simple, or in a park talking about God; others say more focus on community and actually reaching out to the homeless and the elderly would draw them to it because that would be a true representation of Christ's teachings.

I suppose am wondering what we can do to stem the tide of Churchianity. There was talk of coffee bars in churches, and most of the churches I know do now have that. I guess, what problems do you see with the modern church, and what - if anything - can we do to better represent Him?

The main problem with the modern church is preaching the Christian rather than the Christ. The churchianity accusation gets hurled when the person using it, thinks that the church is more important than something they think is really important. The people that want to sit in a circle in a park and talk about God, don't want to go to church in the first place, that's why sitting in a park and chewin' the fat about God appeals to them. The Sunday worship service exists for the saved, not the unsaved.

The Sunday service is not the time to be looking how to bring new people to the church or to figure out new, catchy ways to reach out to the community. You can have meetings for that during the week. The purpose of the Sunday service is to read and teach from God's holy Word and to distribute the Sacraments. It's for the saved, not the unsaved. The modern church has pushed the saved people to the side in order to bring in the unsaved and focus on their needs. Saved people need meat, not baby formula. If they're not getting their meat in their church, they will leave their church and search out a church that isn't afraid to put the saved first.

 

[Secundulus]

This will eliminate the 80% of Christianity that believe one of the primary purposes of Sunday Church services is to participate in the Sacraments of Christ. This is not done in a coffee bar.

Also, I wonder sometimes about those who say that Churchs should not be ornate. We are there to worship the Creator of the Universe. I think sometimes people forget that and see Church as simply a mutual help and self esteem club.

 

[Henaynei]

Our Sunday and Wednesday gatherings serve lots of meat, but they include milk as well

but I understand what you are saying.... we were members years ago of a church whose focus was ministering to the Street People... and we did it VERY well..... but the ENTIRE focus became the babes and the spiritual adults were starving.... sadly eventually the whole thing collasped.... and many soldiers were wounded in the process....

 

[Nadiine]

The main problem with the modern church is preaching the Christian rather than the Christ. The churchianity accusation gets hurled when the person using it, thinks that the church is more important than something they think is really important. The people that want to sit in a circle in a park and talk about God, don't want to go to church in the first place, that's why sitting in a park and chewin' the fat about God appeals to them. The Sunday worship service exists for the saved, not the unsaved.

The Sunday service is not the time to be looking how to bring new people to the church or to figure out new, catchy ways to reach out to the community. You can have meetings for that during the week. The purpose of the Sunday service is to read and teach from God's holy Word and to distribute the Sacraments. It's for the saved, not the unsaved. The modern church has pushed the saved people to the side in order to bring in the unsaved and focus on their needs. Saved people need meat, not baby formula. If they're not getting their meat in their church, they will leave their church and search out a church that isn't afraid to put the saved first.

What I highlighted is exactly the issue and I agree.

There's nothing wrong with having programs and special things your church does; our church does alot of things & just added a new library - but the main focus HAS to be the message.
Church is church. People should not be trying to change what church is so they feel more "at home" and "comfy" - it's a house of God and prayer, not the back lounge at a restaurant or picnic park.

If they won't go until these appeasements happen, then they don't have any need to hear God's word and they don't need to be there.

 

[Zecryphon]

This will eliminate the 80% of Christianity that believe one of the primary purposes of Sunday Church services is to participate in the Sacraments of Christ. This is not done in a coffee bar.

Also, I wonder sometimes about those who say that Churchs should not be ornate. We are there to worship the Creator of the Universe. I think sometimes people forget that and see Church as simply a mutual help and self esteem club.

Well now wait a minute. The Lutheran church believes coffee to be the 4th sacrament, so in a sense, we do hold a Sacrament in the coffee bar. Of course, most of the fare in a coffee bar is not longer coffee when they get done with it. A Frappaccino is not coffee.

 

[Secundulus]

Well now wait a minute. The Lutheran church believes coffee to be the 4th sacrament, so in a sense, we do hold a Sacrament in the coffee bar. Of course, most of the fare in a coffee bar is not longer coffee when they get done with it. A Frappaccino is not coffee.

LOL. We do the coffee in our parish hall in Sunday School before Church and in fellowship after Church. We don't have a bar for it though. Only a big pot.

 

[Zecryphon]

LOL. We do the coffee in our parish hall in Sunday School before Church and in fellowship after Church. We don't have a bar for it though. Only a big pot.

Yeah we don't have an actual bar either, we have a coffee cart with regular and decaf and, ugh, it's just the worst coffee in the world. I don't know what it is about church coffee, but it's always bad.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

This will eliminate the 80% of Christianity that believe one of the primary purposes of Sunday Church services is to participate in the Sacraments of Christ. This is not done in a coffee bar.

Also, I wonder sometimes about those who say that Churchs should not be ornate. We are there to worship the Creator of the Universe. I think sometimes people forget that and see Church as simply a mutual help and self esteem club.

Oh, I should clarify, the coffee bar thing was cited with a fair amount of scorn, and rightfully so. I didn't explain that in the OP. But, yeah, churches that attempt to represent themselves as trendy social settings where someone can buy a 5 buck cup of coffee... it's utterly ridiculous, imo. And yet, here, there's certainly been an explosion of that of late. It just feels like trying to mend a gaping wound with a plaster that's been dipped in bacteria.

 

[Nadiine]

Yeah we don't have an actual bar either, we have a coffee cart with regular and decaf and, ugh, it's just the worst coffee in the world. I don't know what it is about church coffee, but it's always bad.

ya and you'de THINK that since we tithe there, they'de offer some of us REAL coffee cream instead of the stuff in those death packets.




We need signs to put on our backs in the food & drink areas so we get proper services:

TITHER

TAKER

ROFLLLLLLLLl
soddy

 

[Secundulus]

Oh, I should clarify, the coffee bar thing was cited with a fair amount of scorn, and rightfully so. I didn't explain that in the OP. But, yeah, churches that attempt to represent themselves as trendy social settings where someone can buy a 5 buck cup of coffee... it's utterly ridiculous, imo. And yet, here, there's certainly been an explosion of that of late. It just feels like trying to mend a gaping wound with a plaster that's been dipped in bacteria.

I think another part of the problem is that many modern Churches view GROWTH as their first priority.

They are successful if they fill the seats and make lots of money.

What they do or say to fill those seats is of secondary importance.

 

[Zecryphon]

ya and you'de THINK that since we tithe there, they'de offer some of us REAL coffee cream instead of the stuff in those death packets.

Now, Nadiine. Don't you know that with those little packets of death, all they're trying to do is to get you home to the Lord as soon as possible.

 

[Nadiine]

Now, Nadiine. Don't you know that with those little packets of death, all they're trying to do is to get you home to the Lord as soon as possible.

Look, all I want is what I pay for.
ROFLLLLLL

 

[Wade Smith]

The main problem with the modern church is preaching the Christian rather than the Christ. The churchianity accusation gets hurled when the person using it, thinks that the church is more important than something they think is really important. The people that want to sit in a circle in a park and talk about God, don't want to go to church in the first place,

Jesus and the disciples often "sat in a circle in the park" (Gethsemane).

"Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am also in the midst of them."

There are several problems with the modern church that come to mind.

1) Seeker sensitive.

No church has any business asking the un-redeemed how to run the church. The Bible says:
Psalm 1

1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

People who ask unbelievers how they think church should be run, or what they would "like" to see in church are "walking in the counsel of the ungodly".

2) Unscriptural Church Government/Authority

2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Notice, doesn't say, "He shall meditate in man's oppinions..." Says he shall meditate in the law of the Lord. Day and Night!
Now if only the pastor or pope or other leader has authority to read or interpret the Bible, then a person could not meditate in it day and night.

that's why sitting in a park and chewin' the fat about God appeals to them. The Sunday worship service exists for the saved, not the unsaved.

The sunday worship service, at least as it is done today, is not scriptural in the first place. In the average church in america today, most of the "members" of the Body are forbidden to do anything. The "mouth" has told the hand that it has no right to do anything other than sit on the pew and pay tithe and shut up.

In non-denom churches, If you are not the pastor or the pastor's son, or their best buddy, you will never get to preach or minister in any capacity as it regards the Gospel itself. The only exception would be the so-called "praise and worship" team, but they are usually composed of the families of the above, or in larger churches, salaried people who compete for the position.

In denominational churches, it is even worse many times. Nobody gets to do anything unless the president or presbyter, or whatever they call their local or regional overseer, allows them. If a person is a member of these denominations and believes God has told them to start a new church or ministry, the denominational leaders generally wont allow it, or want the person to "prove it" by preaching somewhere else for x number of years (which is disobedience to God).

The Sunday service is not the time to be looking how to bring new people to the church or to figure out new, catchy ways to reach out to the community.

There is never a time to be thinking of "new catchy ways". Paul said God sent him to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words lest the cross of Christ be made of non-effect.

If you need stupid entertainment from "Christian illusionists" and laser light shows and disco balls to get people into the church, then either you are doing something wrong, or else nobody wants Christ anyway. Either way, it is wrong and ridiculous to do those things.

The purpose of the Sunday service is to read and teach from God's holy Word and to distribute the Sacraments. It's for the saved, not the unsaved. The modern church has pushed the saved people to the side in order to bring in the unsaved and focus on their needs.

"I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Actually the problem is this. The modern church does not preach to the lost at all any more. All they do is turn them into "churchians". Even in "good" churches, very often the people are showing little or no enthusiasm for evangelism. They believe, because they have been taught this, they believe that their only role is to pay "tithe and offereing" and let the televangelist do the preaching.

No. Every believer is called to be a "preacher", not just your pastor or the evangelist.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Saved people need meat, not baby formula. If they're not getting their meat in their church, they will leave their church and search out a church that isn't afraid to put the saved first.

The problem is, many of the pastors in such churches are not even saved. They are simply doing what they have always done, or what their daddy did, and don't know God their own selves. Just like Nicodemus, a bible teacher he was, but he didn't even know God his own self...

 

[Wade Smith]

I think another part of the problem is that many modern Churches view GROWTH as their first priority.

They are successful if they fill the seats and make lots of money.

What they do or say to fill those seats is of secondary importance.

Bingo. You win the prize.

This isn't new.

I would rather two or three families in a home church who study the Bible, instead of two hundred familes in a seeker sensitive megachurch.

 

[Albion]

Very interesting observations here! And a really worthwhile topic.

IMO, the look of the building is neither here nor there. There is something to be said for ornateness and also for simplicity. But the Social Gospel and gimmicry intended to attract membership is a sign of decline. What is missing in today's world is any personal sense of guilt...and, sadly, the churches cooperate in that by never going after sin.

Half a millennium ago, the church was similarly breaking down by having lost too many people to modernism, and so it was attempting to fight back by becoming more "relevant." This produced a reaction--the Protestant Reformation that revitalized the Church for several centuries. But now it is falling victim to the same pressures, and we are adrift.

During the period I'm describing, many sincere Christians simply resorted to their own prayer life and avoided the organized church. Some of them are even considered saints today, oddly enough. But perhaps this is our lot, too....Preserve the faith personally while we await the next reformation.

 

[Nadiine]

WS

1) Seeker sensitive.

No church has any business asking the un-redeemed how to run the church. The Bible says:
Psalm 1

Another bingo.

Imho, we've been taking far too much of their advice on how to reach them.

In order to show "love", they've got our leaders watering down truth of God to make them feel less "offended".
Lord help us.

Until God Himself is calling them out, they won't want us running a church the way we are which suits us 'church people' just fine - & when we see something that does need some change, we will act to do it. (hopefully).

I also agree w/ this statement:

I would rather two or three families in a home church who study the Bible, instead of two hundred familes in a seeker sensitive megachurch.