Churches defy the IRS

[Armistead]

Many churches or Pastors have decided to defy the IRS and preach Politics and openly support a canidate. This is against the rules of the IRS.

Should Pastors be able to tell their flock who to vote for? Is there danger
of being seen outcasted if you go against the Pastor?

Should these churches lose their tax exempt status? For the most part, all
of them are pushing McCain?

 

[HuntingMan]

I dont think churches should even HAVE tax exempt status given the requirements involved.

Jesus had a man go find a fish to gain a coin to pay a tax....I dont think we should try to get around paying taxes either....especially at the cost of our pastors stifling themselves.

Therefore give to all their dues; to the one due tax, the tax....
(Rom 13:7 MKJV)

 

[ebia]

Many churches or Pastors have decided to defy the IRS and preach Politics and openly support a canidate. This is against the rules of the IRS.

Should Pastors be able to tell their flock who to vote for? Is there danger
of being seen outcasted if you go against the Pastor?

Should these churches lose their tax exempt status? For the most part, all
of them are pushing McCain?

As someone from outside the US, I find it bizaar that the IRS can instruct anyone not to give political advice, which strikes me as the tax office acting politcally. But hey.

On the other hand, I don't think church leaders should be telling people who to vote for. They should, must, be advising people how to vote in a more appropriate sense - ie encouraging them to get involved in the political process, highlighting issues where no-one else is speaking out, speaking for the voiceless, etc. A church that does do those things has forgotten what the Kingdom of God is all about.

 

[Annolennar]

You know, at first I thought this thread was titled "Churches deify the IRS".

Gladly I was mistaken.

 

[ebia]

You know, at first I thought this thread was titled "Churches deify the IRS".

Gladly I was mistaken.

That would be interesting.

 

[Ave Maria]

Personally, I think that churches should be able to tell their congregation who to vote for without losing their tax exempt status. Either that or tax them and let them tell the congregation who to vote for. At least allow the congregations to give guidelines on who to vote for. We have far too many Christians in this nation who will happily vote for the most immoral party (the one that supports abortion) just because of other issues which are not of the utmost importance.

 

[tapero]

Many churches or Pastors have decided to defy the IRS and preach Politics and openly support a canidate. This is against the rules of the IRS.

Should Pastors be able to tell their flock who to vote for? Is there danger
of being seen outcasted if you go against the Pastor?

Should these churches lose their tax exempt status? For the most part, all
of them are pushing McCain?

I dont' believe politics has a place in church at all, and if churches lose tax exemption due to preaching on who to vote for etc, then I would be very very very glad to see them lose their tax exemption as telling who to vote for, etc has nothing at all to do with Jesus.

 

[ebia]

I dont' believe politics has a place in church at all, and if churches lose tax exemption due to preaching on who to vote for etc, then I would be very very very glad to see them lose their tax exemption as telling who to vote for, etc has nothing at all to do with Jesus.

Pretty much everything Jesus said and did has deliberate political overtones, and likewise everything Paul wrote. Christianity is inherently political. The gospel (Jesus Christ is risen and is Lord) is a political statement. If politics has no place in church, then the gospel has no place in church....

 

[tapero]

Pretty much everything Jesus said and did has deliberate political overtones, and likewise everything Paul wrote. Christianity is inherently political. The gospel (Jesus Christ is risen and is Lord) is a political statement. If politics has no place in church, then the gospel has no place in church....

Where do you see that everything Jesus said and did has poltical overtones?

too much though on your comment if politics has no place in the church, then gospel has no place in the church.

If all the churches which do politics, as to who to vote for etc, are no longer getting tax exemption; then the churches left will be focused on Jesus.

Wouldn't that be nifty!

 

[dies-l]

Many churches or Pastors have decided to defy the IRS and preach Politics and openly support a canidate. This is against the rules of the IRS.

Should Pastors be able to tell their flock who to vote for? Is there danger
of being seen outcasted if you go against the Pastor?

Should these churches lose their tax exempt status? For the most part, all
of them are pushing McCain?

Personally, I would leave my church if my pastor or leadership ever tried to tell me who to vote for, even if I agreed with them. Electoral politics has no place in church, in my opinion. As such, I think that the IRS restrictions of political endorsements by tax-exempt institutions is good for the Church. If a religious person wants to officially endorse on political candidate or another, he or she can feel free to do so in the name of whatever non-tax-exempt political group that he or she would like to organize. But, to do so in the name of the Church or of Jesus is entirely inappropriate.

On the other hand, I believe that churches have a moral obligation to help shape the consciences of their members, which will inevitably have some impact on how they think about the options come election time. But, to say, "as a Christian, you should vote for so-and-so" has little or no potential for good and such great potential for exploitation of the Church by politicians, that such statements have no place in the Church.

 

[BobW188]

A pastor should be able to make his or her views of what constitutes Christian responsibility clear enough without endorsing a named party or candidate.

It's been said above that Jesus's message has political implications. Assuming this arguendo, that's not to say it is Republican, Democratic, Socialist, Libertarian, etc.
We are in Caeser's realm here.

That said, I question the wisdom of the IRS unilaterally revoking tax exempt status. Let Congress decide one way or another.

 

[Rajni]

Many churches or Pastors have decided to defy the IRS and preach Politics and openly support a canidate. This is against the rules of the IRS.

Should Pastors be able to tell their flock who to vote for? Is there danger
of being seen outcasted if you go against the Pastor?

Should these churches lose their tax exempt status? For the most part, all
of them are pushing McCain?

Maybe they should lose their exempt status, if they're outright telling their congregants who they should vote for and ostracizing them if they don't "obey".


,.

 

[ebia]

Where do you see that everything Jesus said and did has poltical overtones?

It's all political. "Jesus is Lord" is a political statement (because it's intended implication is "therefore Caesar, or the US Government, or the world economic system, or whatever, is not". The announcement of the Kingdom of God is a politcal statement. The title Christ (God's annointed, Israel's representative King) is a politcal title. Lord (Adonai), God's Son, Saviour, are all political titles. In a world where political power revolves around the Temple, forgiving people, and healing people, is a politcal action. The sermon on the mount is a political campaign speech. You might as well ask "where do you find anything President Bush did had political overtones".

The idea that religion and politics can be separated is an enlightenment one designed to depower Christianity.

too much though on your comment if politics has no place in the church, then gospel has no place in the church.

The gospel is a political statement - if politics is banned from churches then the gospel is banned. If you proclaim the gospel you are making a political statement. "Jesus Christ is risen and is Lord" is a politcal statement.

If all the churches which do politics, as to who to vote for etc, are no longer getting tax exemption; then the churches left will be focused on Jesus.

Wouldn't that be nifty!

If they aren't doing politics they aren't looking at Jesus, but a distortion of Jesus designed by non-Christians.

As I have said before, that does not mean church leaders should be telling people how to vote.

 

[tapero]

Who is your trust in? your being generic for debate, not directed at you.

Jesus?
Ceasar?
USA?
Democrats?
Republicans?

In the blink of an eye the usa can become a persecuted country, where Christians who won't denounce Jesus and might be killed and tortured for their faith.

Will the answer be, but I'm a republican or democrat? Or I live in usa and so have rights and I'll just kill you all as is my right. Or I believe in this country? Or is belief in Christ? Is trust in Christ. Or is trust in the government?

Or will some verses come to mind; like you will suffer, you will be persecuted; love your enemies; turn the other cheek, return good for evil; serve; love others; forgive others;

What does poltics have to do with Jesus being God or saying I believe in Jesus. Nothing at all. Jesus is not of this world; faith has nothing to do with politics though politics is a religion for some.

Pay taxes to Ceasar (obey government) but follow me (Jesus) and the way the taxes were paid, we were given a clear message. I can get the coin to pay the taxes from a fishes mouth. Huge neon sign there.

In China, where people are coming to Jesus and in doing so are tortured; killed, blackballed from jobs - some say; please don't pray this persecution stop because many are coming in the Kingdom due to such and we are honored to die for our faith. In USA typically might be, we shouldn't have to face persecution; this is usa. two masters...

Politics has no place in a church and think of all the money spent, sent in by Christans to organizations who are trying to get the 'right' candidate in.

The right candidate is Jesus and money can't buy that; nor government give Jesus to any person.

The distraction from Jesus and belief in the religion of politics is surely a useful tool in the enemies camp.

Is good to do good and right but is not our world here and politics has no part in the Kingdom of God, as you'll note God is the King, not Ceasar, not republicans, not democrats.

Reaching others for Jesus is the message, not reaching others for votes.

Jesus had nothing at all to do with politics and never fell for those who tried to pull Him into it and always pointed to truth

 

[hostchecker]

I dont think its the moral thing to do, to mix church and politics. Look what happens in Iran, Afghanistan, when church and politics mix.

 

[ebia]

Who is your trust in? your being generic for debate, not directed at you.

Jesus?
Ceasar?
USA?
Democrats?
Republicans?

That's a political question, and any of those (including Jesus) is a political answer.

"Politics" does not mean "the particular mechanisms of government of the United States". Politics is the art/science of living as a community. The particulars of the politcal system of the US is one particular expression of that. The Kingdom of God is another.

Will the answer be, but I'm a republican or democrat? Or I live in usa and so have rights and I'll just kill you all as is my right. Or I believe in this country? Or is belief in Christ? Is trust in Christ. Or is trust in the government?

Any of those is a politcal answer. "Lord" is a political title, so "Jesus Christ is Lord" is a politcal statement. If you believe Jesus Christ is Lord (which I assume you do) you are taking a political position. Not one that can be mapped on the republical/democrat scale, but a politcal position none the less.

Or will some verses come to mind; like you will suffer, you will be persecuted; love your enemies; turn the other cheek, return good for evil; serve; love others; forgive others;

What does poltics have to do with Jesus being God or saying I believe in Jesus. Nothing at all.

As soon as you say Jesus is Lord or even Jesus Christ or talk about the Kingdom of God you are talking politics. What do you think a Lord, King, or Christ is, for pity's sake, if not a political title?

Jesus is not of this world;

That's bad translation - the correct translation is "I am not from this world".

faith has nothing to do with politics though politics is a religion for some.

Christian faith has everything to do with politics. You've been sold a dud by enlightenment deists I'm afraid.

Pay taxes to Ceasar (obey government) but follow me (Jesus)

Misunderstands everything that is going on in that story. What do you think it says on the coin Jesus asked them to produce? What stories do you think he is intending to bring to mind in ears of those who heard him say "give to caesar what is caesar's"....

Politics has no place in a church

The words Christ, Kingdom, Lord,... (and, for that matter, Saviour, gospel, and quite a few others) are political words. You would ban them from being used in church?

and think of all the money spent, sent in by Christans to organizations who are trying to get the 'right' candidate in.

The right candidate is Jesus and money

You just made a political statement right there.

can't buy that; nor government give Jesus to any person.

The distraction from Jesus and belief in the religion of politics is surely a useful tool in the enemies camp.

Is good to do good and right but is not our world here and politics has no part in the Kingdom of God, as you'll note God is the King, not Ceasar, not republicans, not democrats.

Precisely. That is politics.

I can only conclude that you have no idea what 'politics' means.

 

[ebia]

I dont think its the moral thing to do, to mix church and politics. Look what happens in Iran, Afghanistan, when church and politics mix.

Overall the track record of countries that manage to get very far in removing religion from politics is as bad, if not worse, than the global record of ones that don't. The only faiths that can be separated from politics are ones that are about private spirituality (some versions of buddism, gnosticsm, deist, etc). Most - including all the Abrahamic faiths - are inherently political.

Anyone who thinks you can divorce Christianity from politics either doesn't understand what Christianity is, or doesn't understand what politics is, or both. Same applies to Islam and Judaism. That's precisely why those faiths get persecuted in places where they are active minorities - because they challenge the alternative political systems; Christianity especially. Why do you think the Romans persecuted the early church? Because "Jesus is Lord" is a challenge to Caesar. Why did the the Jewish temple authorities have a problem with Jesus and the early church? Because Jesus is a challenge to their power. When you challenge the misuse of power you are doing politics. When you announce the kingdom of God you are doing politics. When you welcome outcasts you are doing politics.

 

[TCat]

If a pastor is doing his job then he is instructing his congregation to vote according to Biblical standard. He won't have to state one party or the other, it is certainly clear, especailly in this election year.

A candidate who has a personal relationship with God or one who thinks he IS God.

As for the OP, I have heard of churches who are ousting congregants for stating that they disagree with the pastors political leanings. That is a sad example of chuch anyway you slice it.

 

[Celticflower]

I have no problem with a pastor saying "I'm voting for so-and-so" but when he says "no good Christian could even think of voting for ____________" that's when I get up and walk out. Even good Christians should be allowed to make their own decisions.

 

[AngelusSax]

I have no problem with a pastor saying who they believe is the best candidate to try and follow God's will in any election. It is often said that politics and religion don't mix. I disagree for this simple reason:

If one has faith in Christ (since we're speaking specifically of Christian churches here), that faith in Christ is supposed to permeate absolutely ALL of their life, including their politics. I realize many allow their earthly political ideals to influence their faith, which is not the way it SHOULD go, but to disallow any mixture of politics and religion is to disallow faith in Christ to permeate one's politics.

The church is supposed to represent Christ to the world and be Christ-centered and Christ-consumed. If the leaders of a church are voicing, in good faith, the way they believe the country should go, as a result of Christ's prodding (at least in their own opinion/feeling/etc.), I see no reason to disallow that.

As far as taxation goes, I am interested in this: Are Unions taxed? I've heard they are not, which is interesting, because if that is true (and I don't know if it is), then the IRS has a double-standard. Unions use the dues paid to them to support candidates and issues all the time, often on the left side of the political spectrum. If a union can support a candidate or an issue and not be taxed, the same should apply to a church.

Furthermore, I've seen plenty of candidates, such as the Clintons in years past (as an example, not an attack here) campaign in churches. I say GOOD FOR THEM, but if we don't go after THAT church to remove tax-exemption (as allowing someone to campaign in your building is usually a pretty clear sign of endorsement), we shouldn't go after another church because the pastor says, for example, "McCain is the best choice."

I wouldn't want to see a church do nothing but campaign for a candidate, but it shouldn't be verboten either.