Church Views, Works, and Salvation

[Wolfdragon]

OK. So, my posts have been fewer and farther between the last week or so. I have been studying, listening to radio sermons, reading the bible. Learning a lot lately actually. And of course, wanting to learn even more.

I have a confusion though from the past couple of days. Over the past week, I have heard two sermons talking about how you can tell a true Christian by their works. One sermon was by a Calvary Chapel Pastor and the other I believe was Southern Baptist. They say that to be a true and good Christian, who will have pure salvation, you have to have good works. But according to Ephesians:
Quote:
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This tells me that works has nothing to do with weather you are Christian. I understand we are to be "Christ-like", the true meaning of the word Christian, but we will never be "like Christ". He was perfect, we are extremely imperfect. If works were not important for salvation (Romans), then why do the churches put so much emphasis on works? Or is it just these particular churches?
Quote:
Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I understand that, to be submissive to Christ and to try to follow in his footsteps, we have to try to do good, avoid sin etc, but, these don't have anything to do with salvation.

Am I wrong?

In Christ
Tim

 

[BlessedVegan]

There is another passage about how faith is dead without works..or something like that. I don't know the passage..someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I think the point is..just being a good person without faith won't save you..but a good Christian should be doing good works. Faith without works is useless. Just my opinion.

 

[Sketcher]

You're on target there. The reference you're looking for is James 2:14-26.

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

I marked a couple key parts for emphasis. We are to show our faith by what we do. Faith that counts is faith that leads us to action. For example, here's a story of faith and deeds, found in Matthew 14:27-30:

"Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
"Come," He said.

Peter believes. So what does he do? He gets out of the boat and walks on the water towards Jesus. He had enough faith to take a risk and do something with it.

James uses Abraham as an example. Let's get more of Abraham's story.

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

- Hebrews 11:17-19

Abraham acted because he believed God. The faith that God is looking for propels us to action. We trust Him, so we step out, even though it looks like we will fall. This is the action, these are the deeds God is looking for. You don't do works to earn your way into Heaven. Jesus didn't die to get you in there 99% of the way. He died to get you in there 100% of the way, so His word is what we lean on. We do not lean on good deeds or sacrements to get us into Heaven, but God's promise alone. We do good deeds and we get baptised because Christ made us His and commanded them. As it says in Ephesians 2:10, we are God's workmanship, His project and masterpiece. Our purpose as such is to do good deeds, and these good deeds come from a radical faith.

 

[Silent Enigma]

When reading the epistle of James it helps to understand in what sense the word "justified" is used.

Note the following verse:

James 2:25

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
NKJV

Keep in mind that at this point in time (when she hid the spies) Rahab would have still been a pagan idolater. The NIV incorrectly translates justified as "made righteous" in that verse. She believed that the israelites would conquer her city, and her belief was justified. It's like if I say "it's going to rain today" and it does end up raining, my statement was justified.

Likewise faith is "justified" - proven to be true, when it bears fruit. As Paul said--

2 Cor 13:5-6

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? — unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.
NKJV

He didn't say, "Test yourself, see if you can write a list of good works long enough to get to heaven." He said examine to see if you are in the faith.

See my point?

Hope that helps.

 

[God_follower]

heh yes, then works is the fruit of real faith. its just makes sence.

 

[vinc]

This topic is clearly dealt with in the Book of Romans.

The Bible says that all our Righteousness is like filthy rags in the sight of God. Our good works alone cannot save us.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 3:20 : Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:

If we do only good works and have not Faith in the work of Jesus Christ, then also we are not justified.

Romans 3:21-26 : But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

This is because no man might boast that he is justified by doing good works (the law).

Romans 3:28 : Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2-5 : For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The above verses explain this even more clearly. Abraham believed God and it was accounted as Righteousness by God. We are already complete in Him and are already justified by our Faith in Jesus Christ. Verse 4 above says that if we do good works further by abiding in Him we have a reward from God as God considers this as a Debt He owes to us. And verse 5 goes on to say that for the person who does not do good works but has Faith in Him and in His Salvation provided by His grace through Jesus Christ is also justified and is accounted by God as Righteousness.

There are some True Christians who love and excel to do good works as love-slaves for God just like Martha's we can say. And yet there are also some True Christians who may not involve much in good works but have unstinted faith in God and devotion for God like Mary's we can say.

Both kinds of Christians are True Christians and are totally justified by God.

Romans 5:1 : Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 6:1-2 : What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:14-15 : For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

So, according to the above 2 verses, further living in sin is forbidden although we are not under the law (pressure to good works) anymore but under grace.

However, the speed with which one overcomes all the known sins in his/her life depends from Christian to Christian. God is the epitome of Love and Patience and is willing to wait, in undying hope, for even the weakest Christian to become an Overcomer of sin.

This is just my opinion which is posted for your consideration and thought.

Hope this helps in anyway.

Lord Bless You and Yours
Vincent

 

[malkin]

Good works is a joyful response to God's love, is how I understand it. What is a 'good work', exactly? Is it witnessing, is it charity work, is it something else?

 

[Silent Enigma]

Well a good work would be doing anything that's good. Whether it's helping people, not sinning, whatever.