Church Hopper

[MustardSeeed]

Long story short
The penetecostal church that I attend picks me up to go to church. The pastor basically got mad at me for planning to go to another church !!!
I never thought it would have gotten this bad
I told him I would be attending youth group at another church (that I went to even before his church) and he said

"A different church? Ok. I guess we need to talk."

Now my aniexty is through the roof. I am the LEAST confrontational person ON THIS PLANET. I hate conflict. I'm not assertive ...

Why can't I walk into any church I feel like?

 

[Serving Zion]

Long story short
The penetecostal church that I attend picks me up to go to church. The pastor basically got mad at me for planning to go to another church !!!
I never thought it would have gotten this bad
I told him I would be attending youth group at another church (that I went to even before his church) and he said

"A different church? Ok. I guess we need to talk."

Now my aniexty is through the roof. I am the LEAST confrontational person ON THIS PLANET. I hate conflict. I'm not assertive ...

Why can't I walk into any church I feel like?

This pastor will naturally have felt offended.. to have been told this is to have been told that he is not meeting your expectations.

It is sadly not a response born of love, yet even so it is common to encounter churches that in their heart, want to make you a thing of their own.

I suggest that you should pray about this, because it is possible that The Lord will want you to find a more supportive community, but it is also possible that He will want you to remain there to be a good influence.

 

[MustardSeeed]

This pastor will naturally have felt offended.. to have been told this is to have been told that he is not meeting your expectations.

It is sadly not a response born of love, yet even so it is common to encounter churches that in their heart, want to make you a thing of their own.

I suggest that you should pray about this, because it is possible that The Lord will want you to find a more supportive community, but it is also possible that He will want you to remain there to be a good influence.

Thank you Serving Zion
I really appreciate your response

I will keep praying

I feel peaceful when I think about what God requires from me in this situation but it's still hard. Contention and burning bridges are two things I hate. I want to kindly let them know that just because I go to a different church that's not run by them doesn't mean I can't discern sound doctrine !

 

[Serving Zion]

Thank you Serving Zion
I really appreciate your response

I will keep praying

I feel peaceful when I think about what God requires from me in this situation but it's still hard. Contention and burning bridges are two things I hate. I want to kindly let them know that just because I go to a different church that's not run by them doesn't mean I can't discern sound doctrine !

Can you discern The Holy Spirit yet?

 

[MustardSeeed]

Can you discern The Holy Spirit yet?

Yes - reading the Bible and prayer builds your discernment and ability to rightly divide the Word of God

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

 

[Serving Zion]

Yes - reading the Bible and prayer builds your discernment and ability to rightly divide the Word of God

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

Ah that's great You know, all Christians are called to be vessels of The Holy Spirit, but when we sin then we are displacing Him. This is why the pastor you mentioned did not demonstrate The Holy Spirit to you - his sin was pride, and his love has unfortunately been weakened to the point that he could not overcome it's temptation.

An interesting scripture coming to mind for this, is Ephesians 4, particularly verse 3 says that the unity of The Spirit is through peace. The scripture of 1 Timothy 1:3-7 came to mind earlier too, showing that love is the fundamental goal - doctrines, teachings, judgements are of lesser importance (1 Timothy 1:8), requiring patience (Ephesians 4:13).

Anyway, for now you have a decision to make that exceeds the capacity of our own human wisdom, and because you aren't comfortable in that church (for the moment), you are conflicted between your service to them and your desire for a different group.

Be strong and keep cultivating love! God gives strength to the humble but resists the proud, and the pastor should come into unity of spirit when you do accept his invitation to talk

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Long story short
The penetecostal church that I attend picks me up to go to church. The pastor basically got mad at me for planning to go to another church !!!
I never thought it would have gotten this bad
I told him I would be attending youth group at another church (that I went to even before his church) and he said

"A different church? Ok. I guess we need to talk."

Now my aniexty is through the roof. I am the LEAST confrontational person ON THIS PLANET. I hate conflict. I'm not assertive ...

Why can't I walk into any church I feel like?

Sounds to me like he is a bit a controller and has difficulty seeing that people are led by the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit is leading you elsewhere, then he has to "suck it up" (to be quite frank). He is not Jesus, nor is he the Holy Spirit. He is just a guy, nothing more. He has a role and that is to lead his church. He has no right to dictate to you what you should do or where you should go to worship. If he wants to talk to you it is probably to make you feel guilty about leaving his church (where, he thinks, is at the cutting edge of God's purposes, and that no other church is as close to God as his one), and to manipulate you through guilt and fear of man into staying. If it was me, I wouldn't say anything more to him. I would walk out and go to the other church and have no shame or guilt about it. You belong to Christ first, your family and employment next, and the church last. If you have that priority, then you can fellowship wherever you jolly well please and there is no one who has the right to criticise you for it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Long story short
The penetecostal church that I attend picks me up to go to church. The pastor basically got mad at me for planning to go to another church !!!
I never thought it would have gotten this bad
I told him I would be attending youth group at another church (that I went to even before his church) and he said

"A different church? Ok. I guess we need to talk."

Now my aniexty is through the roof. I am the LEAST confrontational person ON THIS PLANET. I hate conflict. I'm not assertive ...

Why can't I walk into any church I feel like?

You do understand that pastors are shepherds. They are to care for and feed the sheep. In this self-centered autonomous, world we live in, we might be blinded to that fact that it's very likely that this pastor is caring for a soul rather than trying to control anyone.

The elders do have authority over those who sit in the pews, and they will have to give an accounting to God for how well they cared for those in their charge.

 

[Serving Zion]

You do understand that pastors are shepherds. They are to care for and feed the sheep. In this self-centered autonomous, world we live in, we might be blinded to that fact that it's very likely that this pastor is caring for a soul rather than trying to control anyone.

The elders do have authority over those who sit in the pews, and they will have to give an accounting to God for how well they cared for those in their charge.

This is a very valid point for OP too. We know that a house divided against itself cannot stand, so the spiritual deception may target both parties. The devil's goal is to steal, kill and destroy; our goal as individual members of the body, is to give no place for the devil (Matthew 25:41, Romans 15:1-3).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You do understand that pastors are shepherds. They are to care for and feed the sheep. In this self-centered autonomous, world we live in, we might be blinded to that fact that it's very likely that this pastor is caring for a soul rather than trying to control anyone.

The elders do have authority over those who sit in the pews, and they will have to give an accounting to God for how well they cared for those in their charge.

They have authority only concerning the well-running of the church. They have no authority over members' personal lives. If they try to exert that type of authority, they are usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in people's lives. I am the senior elder in my church, and no way would I interfere with the personal lives of the members. But if a member is unruly and interrupts the smooth running of the service, or tries to go around prophesying over people without asking the elders' permission first, then I step in and deal with them. But what a person does and where they go outside of the church premises is none of my business, except if they behave in a way that brings the church into disrepute. Then I will approach the person and make them aware of their actions and give them advice so that the community's view of the church remains positive.

I am totally opposed to "covering" and the Shepherding movement where members have to be under the authority of a discipler. Those doctrines are evil doctrines that don't come from heaven.

It is not that I am a law to myself. Just today, after church, a fellow elder came up to me and gave me advice about making too many personal and family references in my sermons. I took that advice willingly, because one or two in the congregation were concerned about it. Not wanting to alienate anyone, I took that advice and am quite happy not to include those references in future. This is the type of correction that is appropriate. It involves the smooth running of the church and to ensure that every member is made to feel comfortable in the services.

But if someone came up to me and tried to tell me what to do in my personal life and family I would ask them if they owned a bicycle. If they did, I would tell them to get on it in no uncertain terms! I got caught out in a "shepherding" church many moons ago and a couple of elders drove a wedge between my wife and me and I made the mistake of being confused about loyalties. I think it was one of the factors that cost me my first marriage. In hindsight I should not have let anyone criticise my wife to me (behind her back). Now, if anyone tries to criticise my present wife, I will give them a good spiritual kick up the asp and tell them to get on their bike in no uncertain terms!

Look right through the New Testament and you will see no scripture support for one person in the church having authority over another. But there is plenty of support for us having authority over demons and sickness.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

"A different church? Ok. I guess we need to talk."

"No we don't." and just walk away from the conversation.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

They have authority only concerning the well-running of the church. They have no authority over members' personal lives.

Look right through the New Testament and you will see no scripture support for one person in the church having authority over another.

Someone stuck this in my Bible: "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Someone stuck this in my Bible: "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

This is why leaders have a much greater responsibility than anyone else. They will be subjected to a closer evaluation of their attitudes toward their members and how they used their leadership. I will submit to a leader whom I know loves me and prays for me in private. They are concerned for my walk in Christ. They will do what they can to strengthen my faith in Christ. They will not be overbearing or controlling. They are just as subject to 1 Corinthians 13 and the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 as anyone else. They will respect my family and not interfere in my private or family life unless invited to do so. When they give counsel or correction it will be five positives for every negative.

When I am at church, even though I am the senior elder, I am surrounded by good men who are not afraid to give me advice from time to time. I feel protected by them and their interaction with me makes my job a lot easier. When I am involved in the interdenominational ministry that I am associated with, I obey the leadership there because the men who run it are those whom I have known for many years and have proved to be good mentors for me.

But I was involved in a church where the elders got in between the members and Christ. They were believers in the Shepherding doctrine and they used guilt and manipulation and misquotes of Scripture to assert their authority, even in the private lives of members. They dictated who members should date, marry, what books to read, what CDs to listen to. Anyone who opposed the Shepherding doctrine was sidelined and pushed out and accused of being rebellious against God because they would not accept such intrusions into their private lives. This is a misuse of authority and the Shepherding doctrine which is at the basis of this false authority is a demonic doctrine designed to put members into bondage to the fear of man. Proverbs says that the fear of man is a snare. No one has the right to take the place of Jesus or the Holy Spirit in the life of any believer. These elders even tried to dictate to other churches in the city, that they should come under their leadership because these elders asserted that they were at the cutting edge of what God was doing in the city and that all other churches should come under their "covering". Any church that refused was accused of being dead and out of the will of God. Looking back, I see this as extreme arrogance and some of those elders might have a hard time explaining their actions to God at the judgment.

I think that when we consider authority and submission, we need to carefully examine the life of Jesus and the letters of Paul. Paul said, "Be followers of me as I am of Christ." He pointed people to Christ, he did not act as a priest to believers by getting in between them and Christ.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

They will respect my family and not interfere in my private or family life unless invited to do so. When they give counsel or correction it will be five positives for every negative.

The above demonstrates that you clearly have no idea what the biblical role of elders is or what submission to them means.

Are the elders to see one's permission to confront him about being a drunken wife beater? Are they obligated by scripture to give the drunken wife beater, "five positives for every negative"?

Also, just because some elders are wolves doesn't mean we do away with elders.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The above demonstrates that you clearly have no idea what the biblical role of elders is or what submission to them means.

Are the elders to see one's permission to confront him about being a drunken wife beater? Are they obligated by scripture to give the drunken wife beater, "five positives for every negative"?

Also, just because some elders are wolves doesn't mean we do away with elders.

You did not read my previous posts. I said that the elders do have a right to confront a person who is bringing the church into disrepute. The example you have quoted is one that would bring the church into disrepute in the community.

I never said do away with elders. I am an elder of my church, but I am not a control freak to my members. A number of years ago we had a minister who was a very controlling person. We lost many members through that minister and people in the church felt disempowered. I believe that a control freak should not be an elder of a church.

The trouble is with using the allusion of "shepherd" for elders is that people equate it with western shepherds who use sheep dogs to bark at the heels of the sheep. This is not the type of shepherd the Bible talks about. The eastern shepherd leads his sheep. They know his voice and they follow him. Jesus said that this was the type of shepherd He is, and He would expect that church elders would be the same. When an elder is the type of shepherd that Jesus is, then it is a joy to submit to such a person because they will lead us to faith in Christ and not stand in between us and Christ.

There is no point in using extreme examples to prove a point. It weakens the argument. By the way, in all the time I have been a believer and associated with a number of churches, I know of only one situation where there was a wife-beater in the congregation, and I heard that story second-hand, so it might have been gossip for all I know. I know of an incident where one of the elders was caught soliciting other men in the city's public toilets. He was well and truly dealt with, and it was made public to the church so everyone would know the true facts and not mere gossip about it. That man was immediately stood down from eldership, and to my knowledge, he was never reinstated.

 

[Another Lazarus]

The Hebrew Priests hate Jesus because people turn their back on them and went to seek Jesus.
The same thing with your Pastors

 

[AlexDTX]

Long story short
The penetecostal church that I attend picks me up to go to church. The pastor basically got mad at me for planning to go to another church !!!
I never thought it would have gotten this bad
I told him I would be attending youth group at another church (that I went to even before his church) and he said

"A different church? Ok. I guess we need to talk."

Now my aniexty is through the roof. I am the LEAST confrontational person ON THIS PLANET. I hate conflict. I'm not assertive ...

Why can't I walk into any church I feel like?

You can. This pastor is hurt because he had invested his time picking you up. He is being carnal because his focus is on building his business not the kingdom of God. Churches are businesses. Pastors are CEO's seeking revenue and growth. Am I being cynical? No, because at the same time there are many pastors who genuinely care about people, but their business is the bottom line.

Jesus went about his Father's business but he did not have a membership count. Instead he had friends. Paul established many congregations, but he only stayed a few years to be sure they knew how to follow Christ for themselves. Yes he ordained leaders, but we don't know when those leaders tried to hold on to the saints for themselves.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

This is not the type of shepherd the Bible talks about. The eastern shepherd leads his sheep. They know his voice and they follow him.

A good shepherd goes after the lost sheep, and how do you think he gets that lost sheep home? Sheep are stupid animals, which I why using them in an analogy for us isn't flattering, yet it is true. We, like sheep, stubbornly wander off, and when sheep wander off the shepherd goes after it, sometimes using more than his voice to get it back. . .

There is no point in using extreme examples to prove a point. It weakens the argument. By the way, in all the time I have been a believer and associated with a number of churches, I know of only one situation where there was a wife-beater in the congregation

The point is, most people don't invite and welcome church leaders to bring discipline to their sin. In fact people aka sinners, want no authority over them at all. Just read this thread for examples. It is a gift of God that we are humbled and willingly submit to His authority, through His leaders.

 

[MustardSeeed]

"No we don't." and just walk away from the conversation.

That's mean ! I can't say that I would feel worse

 

[MustardSeeed]

A good shepherd goes after the lost sheep, and how do you think he gets that lost sheep home? Sheep are stupid animals, which I why using them in an analogy for us isn't flattering, yet it is true. We, like sheep, stubbornly wander off, and when sheep wander off the shepherd goes after it, sometimes using more than his voice to get it back. . .




The point is, most people don't invite and welcome church leaders to bring discipline to their sin.

Lol it has nothing to do with not wanting discipline

I am a sheep to Jesus Christ not a pastor although I understand some of your points
I'm an adult