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I never spoke of the OT. It is the NT that the day of the Lord is the second coming.
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There are many "Day of the Lord" verses in the Old Testament that do not mention anything of His coming.
Almost can agree: the coming of our Lord FOR His saints, as shown in 1 thes. 4 will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord. So they are so to speak back to back events that cannot be separated.I never spoke of the OT. It is the NT that the day of the Lord is the second coming.
Almost can agree: the coming of our Lord FOR His saints, as shown in 1 thes. 4 will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord. So they are so to speak back to back events that cannot be separated.
However, the DAY will begin around 7 years before Christ's THIRD coming as shown in Rev. 19.
Where was Jesus at? NOWHERE.........I have exposed this fallacy long ago, but your thesis is more important than the truth.This Author has not understood the PURPOSE of chapters 4 & 5, which are to set the TIMING of the first seals. There are questions to be answered in chapters 4 & 5.
First, why did John NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the Father? He saw the Father on the throne, but Jesus was simply NOT IN THE THRONE ROOM!
I give the actual TIME-LINE in my thread, in a concise manner I might add........Chronology of Revelation
This is not part of John's vision but is his introduction before the vision in the seven letters to the seven churches.
Here John is taken spiritually to the Lord's day, which is the 7th trump. From this point in the future John will be shown things that happen before the Lord's day and things that will happen on the Lord's day, and things that happen after the Lord's day.
We know the Lord's day here is a 7th trump reference because of this:
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
This is the clue. He is prepared for war just as it is described in Rev 19 which is the 7th trump return:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Similarities
1. His eyes were as a flame of fire
2. and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword
The only time he is described like this is when he returns so it must be that same day.
Outside of Rev 1, this same day is only mentioned 5 times and each time it is speaking of the 7th trump, second coming.
Act_2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
2Co_1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Th_5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
I give the actual TIME-LINE in my thread, in a concise manner I might add........
I am reading it now...........I don't just comment first, I haven't made a judgment, I was replying to iamlamad who thinks the seals have already passed because Jesus couldn't be found, its a two year running disagreement I proved wrong long ago.....The other post was a joke brother, don't get too uptight until I finish reading, it was a joke about the length via the number of posts. Its all good.Why bother stating it? Everyone thinks they understand something the right way. You are just soap boxing. Contribute something meaningful or just leave.
I a reading it now...........I don't just comment first, I haven't made a judgment, I was replying to iamlamad who thinks the seals have already passed because Jesus couldn't be found, its a two year running disagreement I proved wrong long ago.....The other post was a joke brother, don't get too uptight until I finish reading, it was a joke about the length via the number of posts. Its all good.
Mostly agree here except I think this was just more or less an introduction or prelude to what's to come.This is not part of John's vision but is his introduction before the vision in the seven letters to the seven churches.
Here John is taken spiritually to the Lord's day, which is the 7th trump. From this point in the future John will be shown things that happen before the Lord's day and things that will happen on the Lord's day, and things that happen after the Lord's day.
We know the Lord's day here is a 7th trump reference because of this:
The 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe (all 7 Vials). The Sword of the Spirit just means the Holy Spirit via the Word of God.This is the clue. He is prepared for war just as it is described in Rev 19 which is the 7th trump return:
Here are the seven personalized messages from Christ to the seven churches. I have speculated that each Revelation letter only contained the personalized message from Christ to each particular church and that we see all seven now because they were collected at some point so we can read of the message to each church. However, it is certainly possible that John included all seven messages in each letter so that each church could read of the other messages. Either way, there is no specific chronology here other than these letters were mailed out by John in the first century to the existing churches of that time but the messages actually pertained to the end times equivilent of each of the churches. In short, they were delivered in the past but the messages and visions of the future were meant for this last generation to receive and hopefully decipher and understand so they could be prepared when these prophetic events occurred.
Here John is "moved" again and will find himself a bit prior to the Lord's day. This is determined because of the event he witnesses, the opening of the seven seals.
What? The Seven Seals ( the first four, especially) are the Anti-Christ going forth to Conquer right ?Here we see the Lamb slain receive the book with the seven seals from God the Father. The seven seals will show us glimpses of the future actions that the trumpets signify.
The seals are not given in chronological order. The seven seals give insight to parts of each of one of the seven trumps. There are not 14 unique things signifying 14 different events as is commonly believed. Each seal represents a trump. The only two I am sure about are the 1st and 6th seal. The 1st seal opened depicts the arrival of the Antichrist, which occurs in the 6th trump and the 6th seal opened depicts the return of Jesus Christ which occurs when the 7th trump sounds. The rest are up for interpretation.
Here we see that the 144,000 elect will be sealed. The "winds" are held back until the sealing is complete. This takes place prior to the tribulation since all of the 144,000 have to be sealed first.
These came out of the Church Age TRIBULATION, Jesus told us we would always have TRIBULATION, thus the 2000 year Church Age is GREATER than the 7 Years or 70th Week Tribulation as in 2000>7. This is the Raptured Church in Heaven with White Robes on. The Martyrs under the Alter in the 5th Seal are SPECIFICALLY told thy must wait until their fellow brothers die in LIKE MANNER, meaning they will be raised when Jesus returns, after the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is over with, then they are judged at the Rev. 20:4 Judgment Seat.Here is a major jump in chronology. John now sees a huge multitude of people, all arrayed in white robes which symbolizes righteousness and that they are in spiritual bodies. They have come through "great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which places this past the tribulation period and into the eternity. This multitude has overcome and have been judged to life.
As you can see, the throne is not empty. God the Father is there upon it, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is next to Him and He will be on the right side of the throne.
This is a major "clue" to documenting just when this happens, for there are only certain times that the full Godhead (where they are, the Holy Spirit is naturally present) will be together like this, especially with a numberless crowd in the white robes of righteousness standing before them and giving praise. In short, this is definitely not happening right after the tribulation but a time after that. The next verses will help to establish just when this actually is.
Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that.
This is comparable to this:
Ok, this is where it gets interesting.
It is commonly assumed that this coming out "of great tribulation" is a reference to the tribulation of the antichrist and refers to no other tribulation. It actually means any and all tribulations, that these overcame all of them rather than a specific one. There are several "tribulations" that these shall endure through in order to be standing here in white robes praising God. The first one shall be that tribulation hour of the antichrist, then any who took satan's mark will suffer through God's tribulation, which will be all peoples except the elect which is a considerably smaller number than this multitude, and then there is that last testing of satan when he is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will convince and persuade a great numberless multitude to follow him to war with God. Unfortunately if they choose satan at that time, they shall be judged according to that decision for judgement starts right after that.
So, there are several times of tribulation, and even that 1000 year period could be considered another time of tribulation for those who must endure through the teaching and the disciplining.
If this supposedly happens right after the end of the first tribulation of the antichrist, then this is within the time of the millenium, the 1000 year reign of Christ. Do that many people have access to the temple in the millenium? I'm afraid not, for only the priests of the Zadok shall have access to the temple during that time. There shall not be such a large number of people who can approach the throne, in front of the full Godhead who are clothed as they are being symbolic of purity and righteousness. It also says the one on the throne dwells among them. When does God the Father dwell among mankind like this? The Eternity!
Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
This should sound familiar. When is there a time that we should not hunger nor thirst anymore?
Again, this is something that only takes place during the eternity.
There is only one time that God dwells with us and wipes away our tears my friends:
The nations come before throne to honor God and they shall do this to show their love to God.
In conclusion, Revelation 7:9-end is a glimpse of the eternity as are the latter chapters of Revelation, and this great multitude is there before the throne not simply after the tribulation, but after all tribulations have ended. They have overcome all tribulations they have faced and have been judged to life and are free to worship God forever and partake of all the wonderful things promised to us by God.
Some feel that this seal includes the sounding of the 7 trumps but I do not since I believe each seal represents one of the seven trumps. Therefore, the 7th seal must be showing us an event that takes place when one of the 7 trumps sound. I do not know which trump that might be. Some feel it might be when Satan is cast out of heaven.
No one knows the exact time or event that signified the sounding of the trumpets. It is believed that the sounding of the 6th trump will be when Satan announces himself as "Christ" known as the Antichrist so that event will be easy to recognize. The 7th will also be easy since that is the return of Jesus Christ. The other 5 are not so clearly identified. It is believed by many that all but the 6th and 7th have sounded.
And here is what is commonly believed to be the "great tribulation" of the Antichrist.
The chronology here seems to be in line with the previous and is just prior to the sounding of the 7th trump.
Since this happens in heaven and to John I don't find having to know the chronology all that important. It seems more related to John himself and possibly concerning his writing of this vision itself.
This is something John performs prior to the beginning of that "forty and two months" which is the length of the time the first beast has with the time the second beast has. Together they will have 42 months to reign.
The second woe is passed, which was the 6th trump so that entire part was concerning what happens during the 6th trump tribulation of the Antichrist.
This clearly is the 7th trump period of time. Rev 19 also coincides with this passage. This being from a heavenly perspective, Rev 19 an earthly one.
Many believe this goes as far back as the first age but that is not when this woman existed nor when she gave birth to Christ as we will later read. This woman is Israel so this is set in this age, sometime after Israel was a people and nation.
Sometime before Christ was born, Satan cast a third of the stars of heaven to the earth. Stars are normally angels in prophecy but whether these are good angels or bad ones I do not know.
Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
I suspect this is the same event. Satan "stamped" upon these stars which implies they are his enemies. Either way, this happened before Christ's birth.
Contrary to some popular beliefs, Satan does not immediately appear as the Antichrist for the 6th trump tribulation when he is first cast to the earth. This only helps to prove that Satan was cast from heaven in the 3rd trump and occupies himself with things prior to the time he will be the Antichrist. He first tries to persecute the woman, Israel.
The Flood represents the Beasts Army, a FLOOD = TROOPS. Just like the FLOOD Jesus referred to via the Temple falling in 70 AD.God helps the woman escape. Also contrary to many beliefs, this "flood" is actually more of a "river" in the Greek and is for the woman only and it fails to get to her. Whether it's a flood of lies or something else, it fails. This "river" has nothing at all to do with the tribulation or Noah's flood. This takes place prior to the tribulation.
Now Satan will go forth and the tribulation shall begin. He failed against the woman so now he goes after the remnant of her seed, Christians.
This all happened during Rev. ch. 6. Its a Parenthetical Citation. This is the First Seal being opened. The Red Dragon has 7 Crowns because hes over ALL WORLD KINGDOMS of all time. The End Time Beast of Rev. 13 is over a SPECIFIC 10 Kings, and thus the 10 CROWNS. The Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17, (Apollyon) is always UNDER SATAN, thus NO CROWNS.This is the NWO system that Satan employs to gain control of the entire world. The only difference between this beast here and when we saw it in chapter 12 is that it has ten crowns rather than only seven.
Note that the wound is healed before the Antichrist is ever mentioned. The wound was caused by a sword which means a war. One of the seven heads was harmed greatly in a war but was able to heal.
The total length of time this beast has is 42 months which is the same time as 3 1/2 years. There is no reason for comparing the lunar calendar and the solar calendar to come up with a supposed difference in lengths. All the times are given according to the solar calendar which has 30 days per month. 42 months is exactly the same as 3 1/2 years. God's enemies are given times in solar calendar months, and God's servants are given the times in days and not months. Same calendar though, the one God uses.
INCORRECT.......The False Prophet will be a Jew, think Antiochus Epiphanes and Jason, the High Priest who tried to Hellenize the Jews, he bribed Antiochus, who had Jason's brother Onias III the real High Priest killed, Onias III was a pious man. Jason's real name was GET THIS, Yeshua !!Later we will read that this same beast is called the false prophet. The false prophet is the Antichrist, the man of sin, that wicked person, satan.
Oddly enough, nothing is mentioned about the Antichrist forcing anyone to worship him. He only forces worship of the image of the first beast.
Here we jump again. This is after or during the 7th trump after the change of bodies and just after the elect have been gathered together in one place to be with Christ. Babylon has fallen as it does after the 7th sounds.
In my opinion this is a digression, a warning to anyone reading to understand the consequences of taking the mark. It is out of chronology with the first part of Rev 14 since that deals with after the mark had already been taken and this is a warning not to take the mark.
Oddly enough this is another jump to just before Rev 14:1. We now see how the elect were gathered to Mt Zion in symbolic language and description. Note that the first taken are taken by Christ at the 7th trump. This is accomplished by Christ sending forth angels to do the gathering as we read in non-symbolic language in the gospels.
This is the Harvest of the Armageddon Wicked.And here we see the fate of those "left behind" by Christ. They face the wrath of God which will be given in more detain in the next chapter.
We know the seven last plagues, which are the seven vials, are poured out after Christ's return because we see that the overcomers are already together before the vials of plagues are poured out and are said to have already gotten victory over "the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name". Therefore, the pouring of the seven vials does not take place until after the tribulation is over. There is no such thing as a seal opening, a trump sounding and a vial pouring. They each occur at different times.
The seals all are opened by Christ, in non-chronological order. After that, the trumps sound one at a time in order. Once the 7th trump has sounded and the elect have been gathered together then all the vials will be poured out in order.
This is also another clue as to when the vials are poured. The first vial targets all those who already took the mark of the beast. Once the tribulation is over, and Babylon is destroyed will the seven vials of plagues be poured upon those that took the mark of the beast. This takes place at the "end" of the 7th trump.
The 6th vial is the only one without a direct and obvious "plague". The 6th allows Satan to gather his army for the battle of Armageddon.
Part of this battle is also detailed in Rev. 19. Do not confuse this earthquake with the earthquake that took place in the 6th trump killing 7000. This is a completely different and far more powerful earthquake.
This is just an explanation of the beast and Babylon etc.
This takes place in the 7th trump just after Babylon is destroyed. Babylon is the lie that Satan was "Jesus Christ" and includes all that were deceived by Satan and whom took the mark of the beast. Babylon means confusion and they were very confused. Note that her plagues will come in one day, even one hour. Those plagues are the 7 vials of plagues. The all are poured out the same day, within an hour.
The Bride is seen in Heaven in Rev. 4:4, 5:9 and 7:9-17, so the Marriage has ALREADY HAPPENED. Most of Rev. 19 is not a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation, however where the Beast and False Prophet are cast into hell is a REAL TIME EVENT.This also takes place right after Babylon is destroyed and just prior to the "wedding" of the Lamb and his bride.
Here we jump back to the fall of Babylon and that battle of Armageddon.
Rev. 20 -22 is a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation. But chapters, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are not.Rev. 20 happens after Rev. 19 chronologically. Once Satan's forces are defeated, then Satan will be chained and the 1000 years begins.
Rev. 20 -22 is a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation. But chapters, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are not.
Which makes no sense that the two witnesses die, killed by the beast, and their deaths celebrated over by the people of the world exchanging presents, making merry, at a time when the world is at war, mass starvation, and deaths around the world, all of life in the oceans death, and the waters poisoned, the earth basically decimated.The Two-witnesses DIE before the Beast dies, thus they HAVE TO show up before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem to become the Beast. Their 42 Months do not run concurrently, they just overlap. The Two-witnesses show up 75 days before the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and they die 75 Days before the Beast dies, they die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial.
ewq, I did this break down on the structure of Revelation a little over a year ago....I didn't say they were. I already understand that Rev is not written chronologically. 13 happens before 11, 12 happens before 11 and 13, 19 is very close to the end of 11...the rest belong somewhere in there...don't feel like spending an hour to reply. I might reply point by point but will be tmr if I have time. Thanks for reading...I know it was long but Rev is long
You can choose to believe that if you wish, but the truth is, scripture shows us two MORE comings: first FOR His saints, and then later WITH His saints.There is only two comings. His first when he walked the Earth and the second coming.
Which makes no sense that the two witnesses die, killed by the beast, and their deaths celebrated over by the people of the world exchanging presents, making merry, at a time when the world is at war, mass starvation, and deaths around the world, all of life in the oceans death, and the waters poisoned, the earth basically decimated.
It is a terribly flawed interpretation, regarding the timing of the two witnesses..
You are going to be so shocked, when these events begin to happen EXACTLY in the timing John has given us.I didn't say they were. I already understand that Rev is not written chronologically. 13 happens before 11, 12 happens before 11 and 13, 19 is very close to the end of 11...the rest belong somewhere in there...don't feel like spending an hour to reply. I might reply point by point but will be tmr if I have time. Thanks for reading...I know it was long but Rev is long
Which makes no sense that the two witnesses die, killed by the beast, and their deaths celebrated over by the people of the world exchanging presents, making merry, at a time when the world is at war, mass starvation, and deaths around the world, all of life in the oceans death, and the waters poisoned, the earth basically decimated.
It is a terribly flawed interpretation, regarding the timing of the two witnesses..
I didn't say they were. I already understand that Rev is not written chronologically. 13 happens before 11, 12 happens before 11 and 13, 19 is very close to the end of 11...the rest belong somewhere in there...don't feel like spending an hour to reply. I might reply point by point but will be tmr if I have time. Thanks for reading...I know it was long but Rev is long
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