Christ's substitutionary atonement?

[gnine]

How many times have you heard it argued that how can Christ pay for our sins when we commit sins that were against others as well as God? Lots of times? I have.

Let me give you an example:

Person A kills person B - Christ dies for person A and forgives person A. Person B sits on the sidelines sulking, thinking "what right has Christ to forgive him, since the offense was against ME"?

That line of thought got me thinking... the bible is all about how God restores His relationship with mankind, not primarily about how one person can restore a relationship and obtain forgiveness from another person.

Therefore to critisize Christ's atoning sacrifice for the example that I gave above is simply to misapply what it was intended for. i.e. reconciliation between God and mankind - not reconciliation between two humans.

What do you think? I've never heard this point of view put forward before, so I'll be interested to see what everyone says. I accept that I could be completely wrong, if so, no harm done, just show me how and where.

Looking forward to responses!

 

[Philip]

How many times have you heard it argued that how can Christ pay for our sins when we commit sins that were against others as well as God? Lots of times? I have.

I have heard it many times, but since I do not accept the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, it does not affect me.

Let me give you an example:

Person A kills person B - Christ dies for person A and forgives person A. Person B sits on the sidelines sulking, thinking "what right has Christ to forgive him, since the offense was against ME"?

That line of thought got me thinking... the bible is all about how God restores His relationship with mankind, not primarily about how one person can restore a relationship and obtain forgiveness from another person.

While Christ's incarnation, life, death, and resurrection restored our connection to God, Christ's teachings make it clear that we have no right to hold anything against another person:

Matthew 18:21-35:
Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven. "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, 'Pay what you owe.' So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."​

Christ tells us that so long as we hold anything against a brother, we are not worthy to seek God's forgiveness:

Matthew 5:22-34
But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. ​

We should not expect God's forgiveness if we have not first forgiven our brother. Indeed, He teaches us to pray:

Matthew 6:12
And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;​

Therefore to critisize Christ's atoning sacrifice for the example that I gave above is simply to misapply what it was intended for. i.e. reconciliation between God and mankind - not reconciliation between two humans.

What do you think? I've never heard this point of view put forward before, so I'll be interested to see what everyone says. I accept that I could be completely wrong, if so, no harm done, just show me how and where.

While Christ's acts do not necessary make things right between my brother and me, they do provide the example by which I must live. God's forgiveness of me requires, compels, and enables my forgiveness of my brother.

 

[billwald]

The animals constituted the substitutionary atonement. They temporarially substituted till Jesus died.

 

[St. Worm2]

How many times have you heard it argued that how can Christ pay for our sins when we commit sins that were against others as well as God? Lots of times? I have.

My reading and response was done in great haste earlier today, so I thought I'd better try to redo this part of my post. Here goes: I've never heard that argument (as I said earlier today), but I think I would answer that Christ doesn't pay the price for the sins I commit against man, I have to (perhaps with my own life if I was person A, the murderer, in your example above). So I agree your "point of view" where the atoning work of Christ is involved, but I also agree with Philip that we are called by God to be reconciled not only to Him, but to our brother as well.

As for the substitutionary atonement issue (involving the sins I commit against God), I'd like to talk further about that too (especially with you, Philip, as I'm very interested in learning more about the Orthodox doctrine of salvation), but will have to do so later I'm afraid. For now though, I will just leave a few Scripture verses that come to mind on the subject.

"Even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45

"This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." Matthew 26:28

"There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all" 1 Timothy 2:5-6a

"Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people" Hebrews 9:28

"This is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." 1 John 4:10

Blessings in Christ,
David

 

[gnine]

Thanks for your answer!

I guess where I hear that argument is when non-believers attack Christianity.

Although I no longer engage in apologetics with people who are not seeking (I've only observed it to harden someone's attitudes), its always intersting to lurk on that forum and see where non-believers launch their attacks and then do some quiet investigation of my own.

I'll look forward to your thoughts on the atonement.

 

[St. Worm2]

...since I do not accept the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, it does not affect me.

Hi Philip, what do the Orthodox believe concernning Christ's involvment in our salvation (I guess especially in contrast to the Protestant view of "Substitutionary Atonement") .. If it's long and involved, perhaps you could just direct me toward a good Orthodox Web site to help me find the answers I am looking for?

Thanks!!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Philip]

Hi Philip, what do the Orthodox believe concernning Christ's involvment in our salvation (I guess especially in contrast to the Protestant view of "Substitutionary Atonement") .. If it's long and involved, perhaps you could just direct me toward a good Orthodox Web site to help me find the answers I am looking for?

There is a fairly larger difference between East and West in this matter. This page has several good articles. The entire site is useful, but a couple of articles were written by ultra-traditionalists. I'll be happy to try to answer any questions, or stop by TAW

 

[St. Worm2]

There is a fairly larger difference between East and West in this matter. This page has several good articles. The entire site is useful, but a couple of articles were written by ultra-traditionalists. I'll be happy to try to answer any questions, or stop by TAW

Thanks for the links Philip, and thanks for the offer to help if I have questions .. I'll let you know when I do.

Yours and His,
David