Christmas Feud

piggytail · Dec 23, 2003

I wouldn't go for Christmas, either. What they are doing is wrong. I would not encourage them in their playing house by attending Christmas dinner over there. As a concession, perhaps you could have Christmas dinner at your place? Then your family wouldn't try and make you feel obligated. As the situation stands, there is no way I would celebrate Christmas in their immoral home. Regardless of whether they're sleeping together or not, nobody knows what goes on when the lights go out. That is where the problem lies. When someone lives together, it is automatically assumed that they are sleeping together--no matter how moral or chaste the couple claims to be. And to the person who said that you have "no choice" but to live with your "fiance," I disagree. There is ALWAYS a place to go--even if it's only temporary. And why not go to the court house and marry her? You can always have your wedding later. I'm seeing a lot of excuses on this thread--many from Christians. I don't believe Christians should buy into excuses anymore than they should tolerate (and pander) to sin. Going to their house for Christmas would be pandering, and IMO, wrong.

P3nguin1 · Dec 23, 2003

piggytail said:
As the situation stands, there is no way I would celebrate Christmas in their immoral home.

Immoral based on your assumption, not on God's Word.

piggytail said:
Regardless of whether they're sleeping together or not, nobody knows what goes on when the lights go out.

Not true. You don't know. I don't know. But they know, God knows. Isn't that all that really matters?

piggytail said:
That is where the problem lies. When someone lives together, it is automatically assumed that they are sleeping together

And the problem is with the gossiping people who ASSUME this. Not with the couple.

piggytail said:
And to the person who said that you have "no choice" but to live with your "fiance," I disagree. There is ALWAYS a place to go--even if it's only temporary.

It is presumtious to claim to know my situation without even talking to me.
Since you have all the answers tell me where I should go. If you can do that without asking any questions I would be impressed.

It is easy to judge without asking questions, harder to find solutions.

piggytail said:
I don't believe Christians should buy into excuses anymore than they should tolerate (and pander) to sin. Going to their house for Christmas would be pandering, and IMO, wrong.

I have asked before and am still waiting for an answer: Show me where the Bible says living together is a sin.

It is only a sin in your mind because you ASSUME they will be sexually immoral. If they aren't then it is not sinful. You may not like it, you may not feel you would be able to stay chaste in that situation, but that still does not make it a sin.

I believe the greater wrong is telling them "I know you say you arent having sex, but I believe you are lying so we are not coming to your house."

On what do you base this? On the way it "looks"? Thats gossip, and thats IS in fact a sin.

SirKenin · Dec 23, 2003

Some of the sentiments expressed here is exactly the type of thing that made me turn my back on Christianity years ago.

I'm going to be blunt here. Hate me if you must. Not going over because you don't agree with how they are living is judgemental, childish and certainly isn't Christ-like. Who are you to judge their motives? Who are you to call them a liar? What kind of child says "You're not doing things my way so I'm not coming over". That sickens me.

My parents treated me like that for years. I never got over it, as you can tell from how strongly I word this. I've seen how churches judge people based on the way they dress, how they act, whether they smoke or not, and I turned my back on them. If you can't treat me with dignity and respect, I don't want anything to do with you.

If you're any type of family, go over for Christmas. Christmas isn't the time to drag your family into petty squabbles, trying to make a sorry case in point and thumping them over the head with your interpretation of the Bible. Sorry, that's just sad. Maybe you should spend Christmas alone and give each other a lump of coal and a Bible.

To think that anyone could even begin to hide behind Christianity in an attempt to justify this type of behaviour sickens me. That's the way I see it.

P3nguin1 · Dec 23, 2003

drfeelgood said:
Some of the sentiments expressed here is exactly the type of thing that made me turn my back on Christianity years ago.

I'm going to be blunt here. Hate me if you must. Not going over because you don't agree with how they are living is judgemental, childish and certainly isn't Christ-like. Who are you to judge their motives? Who are you to call them a liar? What kind of child says "You're not doing things my way so I'm not coming over". That sickens me.

My parents treated me like that for years. I never got over it, as you can tell from how strongly I word this. I've seen how churches judge people based on the way they dress, how they act, whether they smoke or not, and I turned my back on them. If you can't treat me with dignity and respect, I don't want anything to do with you.

If you're any type of family, go over for Christmas. Christmas isn't the time to drag your family into petty squabbles, trying to make a sorry case in point and thumping them over the head with your interpretation of the Bible. Sorry, that's just sad. Maybe you should spend Christmas alone and give each other a lump of coal and a Bible.

To think that anyone could even begin to hide behind Christianity in an attempt to justify this type of behaviour sickens me. That's the way I see it.

Amen and AMEN!

SGaulke26 · Dec 23, 2003

I never said that they were lying. Whether they have sex or not is not my concern - I just think it is a huge compromise to live together. It is amazing that all these people read the same Bible and have such different opinions. What it comes down to is that this is not a decision I should have to make. If it makes me uncomfortable, that is okay. I have made the decision to not attend a friends' party where there was alcohol because that makes me uncomfortable. I don't believe the situations are much different. I am not treating them bad or condemning them. They had the choice to marry or not and they chose not. They had every opportunity to marry, but they spent all their money on this house and they want a big, spectacular wedding. They decided to save money until they can afford this big wedding instead of just getting married and making it right.

P3nguin1 · Dec 23, 2003

SGaulke26 said:
I never said that they were lying. Whether they have sex or not is not my concern - I just think it is a huge compromise to live together. It is amazing that all these people read the same Bible and have such different opinions. What it comes down to is that this is not a decision I should have to make. If it makes me uncomfortable, that is okay. I have made the decision to not attend a friends' party where there was alcohol because that makes me uncomfortable. I don't believe the situations are much different. I am not treating them bad or condemning them. They had the choice to marry or not and they chose not. They had every opportunity to marry, but they spent all their money on this house and they want a big, spectacular wedding. They decided to save money until they can afford this big wedding instead of just getting married and making it right.

I think the difference between this and a friends party is that this is Christmas, and family.

There are a lot of things that can make a family get together "uncomfortable", but we do it because family is family. At Christmas this is even more important.

I understand that you don't agree with them not being married yet, but it isn't your decision.

Since you admit you don't believe them to be sinning is this really so important that you would let it stop you from celebrating the birth of our Savior with them? Is this principal so important that you would let it overshadow such a Holy day?

Come on now, I am beginning to wonder if there is some other reason you don't want to go and came here looking for ammunition.

p.s. Take these 1000 blesssings (all that I have) and accept them in love from a fellow Christian. I don't agree with you but I am willing to put that aside to bless you.

Now go do the same with your brother in law and have a wonderful Christmas.

SGaulke26 · Dec 23, 2003

Traditionally we never spend Christmas with them anyway. We do my husband's family on Christmas Eve (which we are still doing with my brother-in-law and his fiancee) and my family on Christmas day. I just wanted to know whether my reason for not going was unreasonable because of the reaction I got. Also, Penguin, you indicated earlier that you are living with your fiancee for the stability of your children. That is very important to me as well. I honestly do not want my daughter in that sort of situation. Children don't know what exceptions are. To them everything is either black or white - not grey. So, in effect, I would be telling my daughter that this is acceptable - which I do not want to do. I am not a judgmental person and I get your reasons for living with your fiancee. I also get the other opinions expressed. I am just confused about where the line should be drawn.

SGaulke26 · Dec 23, 2003

I didn't read the bottom half of your message. Thank you for responding to my post in love instead of criticism - I really appreciate it.

SirKenin · Dec 23, 2003

SGaulke26 said:
I never said that they were lying. Whether they have sex or not is not my concern - I just think it is a huge compromise to live together. It is amazing that all these people read the same Bible and have such different opinions. What it comes down to is that this is not a decision I should have to make. If it makes me uncomfortable, that is okay.

Sure, so you're going to stick your nose up in the air, drag them into it, tear a big rift through the family, play God and destroy someone's Christmas while you're at it. Makes sense to me.

I have made the decision to not attend a friends' party where there was alcohol because that makes me uncomfortable. I don't believe the situations are much different. I am not treating them bad or condemning them.

Well, if it's a drunken bash, I guess that's one thing. If it was a couple of casual drinks, I'd be shaking my head in disbelief and thinking you were pious and self-righteous. You are treating them bad, as far as I'm concerned. I guess it's all a matter of how you look at it. Kudo's to you for judging your family and wanting to thump them over the head with a Bible to make them comply to your higher standards before you bless them with your presence.

They had the choice to marry or not and they chose not. They had every opportunity to marry, but they spent all their money on this house and they want a big, spectacular wedding. They decided to save money until they can afford this big wedding instead of just getting married and making it right.

That should make no difference on how you treat them. Your time would be better spent praying for them, rather than passing judgement and creating a scene at Christmas.

Sorry, but although I have nothing against you as a person, you certainly don't have any sympathy from me. Frankly I'm disgusted. I hope you understand, just as you no doubt expect your family to understand why you're treating them like dirt.

SirKenin · Dec 23, 2003

SGaulke26 said:
So, in effect, I would be telling my daughter that this is acceptable - which I do not want to do. I am not a judgmental person and I get your reasons for living with your fiancee.

You can't tell me a four year old is going to be influenced by going over this Christmas. There is no way that a child of that age is going to have the cognitive ability to be able to discern what is going on in that household. All she understands is lots of people, food, Santa, presents and being the center of attention.

You are using the child and Christianity as a crutch to justify your judgemental actions. I'm sorry.

SirKenin · Dec 23, 2003

P3nguin1 said:
Is living together in abstainance a sin? Please show me where in the bible it says this.

It doesn't AFAIK.

seebs · Dec 23, 2003

I would like to put in a vote of support for drfeelgood, whose position on this seems to me to be very well considered.

SirKenin · Dec 23, 2003

seebs said:
I would like to put in a vote of support for drfeelgood, whose position on this seems to me to be very well considered.

Ty Comments of support like those from you and p3nguin1 are uplifting and encouraging.

JillLars · Dec 25, 2003

I hope that you will be able to work things out. Personally, I think you are passing judgment. Do you expect them to just buy two different houses so that you and your husband will come to Christmas with them? Ultimately, they are adults and they make their own decisions. I wouldn't let something like that ruin relationships with my family, you can make it clear that you. While I understand that you disagree with their decision, I think you need to remember that this is family and the time we have with the ones we have is not always as long as we would like it to be, so don't take it for granted over a little tift like this. That's just my opinion, hope no one's offended, and I really do hope that you can work things out.

desi · Dec 25, 2003

Good for you not humoring their 'play house' relationship and avoiding validating it in your childrens' eyes. You made the right decision and took a stand.

TheFirstNoelle · Dec 29, 2003

I haven't read through the whole thread, so I apologize if I repeat things.

You expressed your concern to your brother in law and his fiancee, and now it's up to them to follow the leading of their consciences. It's not up to you to tell them that their marriage will not be blessed by God.

You not attending the dinner at their house does not sound like an action Jesus would take. One poster on these boards tried to argue that Jesus went to the houses of sinners, but only sinners who weren't sinning anymore. As in, Jesus wouldn't be caught dead in the company of tax-collectors and prostitutes who hadn't turned over a new leaf. This is not the case. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus went to the homes of sinners who had already repented. He just went to the homes of sinners. He attracted sinners, and he loved them.

Since you believe your brother in law in sinning in his actions, you should behave in the way Jesus would. That's not condoning his lifestyle. It's loving him as a person.

LN · Dec 29, 2003

Its a tough world

People make up their own religion by morphing the bible to suit their needs and calling it "Christianity"

My in-laws do the same. I do hang with them and I don't say anything (other than the occasional attempt to defend Christianity as outlined in the bible) but I don't have a four-year-old either. I think that if I did, I'd probably still hang with them. Unfortuantely I KNOW I will be dealing with this the rest of my life. Both of my husband's siblings have told me that they plan on letting their kids have boy-girl sleepovers in high school, they don't see anything wrong with underage drinking, and they don't understand why gays can't marry. Its like the bible is completely out the window. Unfortuantely they get that from my MIL but I won't hijack your thread

I think the only balance is remaining firm while showing love. So I probably would have gone, or I would have had a conversation along the lines of "you know that although I love you, I can't agree with the decision that you have made to move in together. Just so I don't have to do any explaining to little Sally, do you mind if we do Christmas as my house this year? "

LN

P3nguin1 · Dec 30, 2003

LN said:
Its a tough world

People make up their own religion by morphing the bible to suit their needs and calling it "Christianity"

My in-laws do the same. I do hang with them and I don't say anything (other than the occasional attempt to defend Christianity as outlined in the bible) but I don't have a four-year-old either. I think that if I did, I'd probably still hang with them. Unfortuantely I KNOW I will be dealing with this the rest of my life. Both of my husband's siblings have told me that they plan on letting their kids have boy-girl sleepovers in high school, they don't see anything wrong with underage drinking, and they don't understand why gays can't marry. Its like the bible is completely out the window. Unfortuantely they get that from my MIL but I won't hijack your thread

I think the only balance is remaining firm while showing love. So I probably would have gone, or I would have had a conversation along the lines of "you know that although I love you, I can't agree with the decision that you have made to move in together. Just so I don't have to do any explaining to little Sally, do you mind if we do Christmas as my house this year? "

LN

Yeah, because judging peoples behavior, especially when it is not sinful, is a great way to show Christian love. Remember we are talking about living together WITHOUT having sex here. I still don't see where the sin is.

LN · Dec 30, 2003

and rolling your eyes at someone is the same.

THAT IS SO RUDE!!!!

If you disagree, learn to say it nicely.

She is concerned about her daughter seeing an appearance of evil. I was offering a possible compromise. I never said that living together without having sex is a sin, I was saying its a concern to her and her daughter and its worth pursuing a compromise. Said nicely, and politely, it could offer a "let's agree to disagree" solution that preseves the relationship while addressing the situation at hand.

msjones21 · Dec 30, 2003

You can't tell me a four year old is going to be influenced by going over this Christmas.

Honestly, would you say the same thing if he were gay and living with his lover?

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