Christians...

SBG · Apr 23, 2005

You don't think beliefs lead into actions, that there is no connection? The belief in evolution has lead to the action of reading Genesis allegorically. The belief that Genesis is a myth has lead to the actions of calling creationism a foundation of lies.

If you think it is belief only, then you are arguing against James. For belief and action are interconnected and cannot be seperated.

seebs · Apr 23, 2005

Honestly, until Judgment Day, I don't know how we could say whether or not they are saved. Why not look at their fruits? Do they display meekness, temperance, and charity? If so, they probably don't need our concern.

seebs · Apr 23, 2005

SBG said:
If you think it is belief only, then you are arguing against James. For belief and action are interconnected and cannot be seperated.

Similarly, the belief that YEC-beliefs are true often leads to the action of questioning the salvation of people who believe differently.

Nonetheless, in both cases, the belief really leading to wrong action is the belief that such uncharity is acceptable.

SBG · Apr 23, 2005

Let us reiterate then a previous question, was Paul wrong to judge people and say they were not believers? Was he uncharitable as you say?

Maccie · Apr 23, 2005

seebs said:
Honestly, until Judgment Day, I don't know how we could say whether or not they are saved. Why not look at their fruits? Do they display meekness, temperance, and charity? If so, they probably don't need our concern.

Amen to that!

SBG said:
Let us reiterate then a previous question, was Paul wrong to judge people and say they were not believers? Was he uncharitable as you say?

I don't know whether Paul was wrong - I daresay God told him when he got to heaven! But I do think Paul had special abilities given him by God, and he lived in special times, when Christianity was only a few years old. He made his own judgment, and was respondible for that.

But that doesn't give us the right to judge the salvation or otherwise of people today. We are not Pauls, Peters, or, more importantly, we are not God.

Faith In God · Apr 23, 2005

Maccie said:
Exactly. God judges.

Paul stated precisely who he believed were not brothers in the faith.

Exactly. As James also said, our actions (and words) demonstrate our beliefs.

Uh-huh

Not at all. If you think you are called, as Paul was, and if you think you have the qualifications that Paul had, then go ahead and judge people as to whether they will be saved or not. And remember that Paul spent 14 years alone in what is now Syria, thinking things through, before he went along as an evangelist.

I have a hard time listening to this advice, when Paul began his evangelistic work and that was what got him spending those 14 years. Check your information. Paul did not wait to evangelize. How long before I can be prudent?

Me, I'll leave their salvation to God. Though, of course, that doesn't stop me knowing, and possibly telling them, that what they are doing, or believing, is wrong.

Okay.

I'm just not going to usurp God's place and tell them they are not saved.

Ah. So imply it and do your best not to offend, because that is the biggest fashion in modern christianity.

But the OP was talking about beliefs, not actions. And as I said before, it really is simple.

So, no being a "closet Christian", proclaim that Jesus is your Lord, and believe in the resurrection.

Leave the rest to God.

Except proclaiming Jesus being Lord entails following your statement and not condoning hypocrisy.

You do a very good job of avoiding any offending statements, you know?

Faith In God · Apr 23, 2005

Maccie said:
I don't know whether Paul was wrong - I daresay God told him when he got to heaven!

But I do think Paul had special abilities given him by God,

??? [bible]Acts 3:12[/bible]

and he lived in special times, when Christianity was only a few years old.

Ah. Go to persecution.com. Those times are only different because there was little room for hypocrisy when the Church was being persecuted to death.

He made his own judgment, and was respondible for that.

...so, is this what you are saying? (Crudely): "Paul was a special Christian, and so he was okay in judging. But then, he might've been wrong anyway."

But that doesn't give us the right to judge the salvation or otherwise of people today.

What's the difference?

We are not Pauls, Peters

Click to expand...

[bible]Acts 26:29[/bible]

, or, more importantly, we are not God.

Click to expand...

Are you saying Paul and Peter were? The Pagans did...

Faith In God · Apr 23, 2005

seebs said:
Honestly, until Judgment Day, I don't know how we could say whether or not they are saved. Why not look at their fruits? Do they display meekness, temperance, and charity? If so, they probably don't need our concern.

I know some pretty nice pagans at this website alone.

SBG · Apr 23, 2005

seebs said:
Honestly, until Judgment Day, I don't know how we could say whether or not they are saved. Why not look at their fruits? Do they display meekness, temperance, and charity? If so, they probably don't need our concern.

This sounds like an off shoot of the Catholic doctrine, one which they won't even consider to be true.

Do you honestly think that those who do good things, even though they don't believe in Jesus are going to go to heaven and are not in need of our concern? Those who display meekness, temperance, and charity, even though they don't believe? Shall they be saved by these works rather than following Jesus Christ?

Are you basically saying Jesus was completely wrong?????

Maccie · Apr 23, 2005

butxifxnot said:
have a hard time listening to this advice, when Paul began his evangelistic work and that was what got him spending those 14 years. Check your information. Paul did not wait to evangelize. How long before I can be prudent?

Apologies, it was three years, not 14. Galatians 1:15-19

Ah. So imply it and do your best not to offend, because that is the biggest fashion in modern christianity.

I didn't say that. I said "I'm just not going to usurp God's place and tell them they are not saved." If you say that then you are trying to be God.

Ah. Go to persecution.com. Those times are only different because there was little room for hypocrisy when the Church was being persecuted to death.

The real persecution came later, under Diocletian. And I said the times were different. They were.

...so, is this what you are saying? (Crudely): "Paul was a special Christian, and so he was okay in judging. But then, he might've been wrong anyway."

Paul was an Apostle.

maccie said:
But that doesn't give us the right to judge the salvation or otherwise of people today.

You and I are not Apostles. And we have no right to judge anyone's salvation. If you can't see the difference, then I weep for you.

or, more importantly, we are not God.</B>

Are you saying Paul and Peter were? The Pagans did..

<Sigh> Read the whole sentence. PLEASE!

maccie said:
We are not Pauls, Peters, or, more importantly, we are not God.

I'm talking about you, me, and everyone else, both on this Forum and elsewhere.

[QUOTE-butxifxnot]You do a very good job of avoiding any offending statements, you know? [/QUOTE]

I should hope so! Being offensive gets us nowhere.

SBG · Apr 23, 2005

Apostle means sent from. Paul was an Apostle (sent from) the Lord Jesus Christ. If we take up that cross and follow Him, we too are then 'sent from' Jesus to preach His name.

Now, if you care to give me a fair ear, you will understand that I don't put myself or another at the same level as Paul. But.. there are some out there that are at or near Paul's level of teaching and preaching.

Would you say that God is inactive today, that He no longer sends people out as His own to preach His written Word and testimony of Jesus Christ who died?

Beware putting Paul and Peter on this high pedal stool, because they were just men, although they were sent by Jesus Christ. I believe Jesus stills sends men out to preach, even today.

Remember Paul said, do not say you are Paulinians, for Paul did nothing more that deliver the message he was given. That is what we are suppose to do, as well.

1denomination · Apr 23, 2005

I believe Jesus stills sends men out to preach, even today.

And all gods people said

Vance · Apr 23, 2005

The whole 'if you believe X, you WILL be led to believe Y" mantra doesn't stand if it can be shown that it does not happen. A phantom menace. Nothing about a "belief in evolution" inevitably leads to a loss of salvation. Period. Not even close. A belief that Genesis is meant to be read figuratively doesn't cause a loss of salvation. Even believing that Creation Science (not the creation) is based on a foundation of lies will lead to a loss of salvation.

What is much more likely to cause a loss of souls in the Kingdom is the dogmatic presentation of YEC'ism.

Faith In God · Apr 23, 2005

Maccie said:
Apologies, it was three years, not 14. Galatians 1:15-19

Just drop it. You're missing my point.

I didn't say that. I said "I'm just not going to usurp God's place and tell them they are not saved." If you say that then you are trying to be God.

Better they know now than the day of judgment, when it is too late! Bring up Scripture to back this claim of yours up.

The real persecution came later, under Diocletian. And I said the times were different.

Try that website. There's still immense persecution.

They were.

They were. But that is no excuse for the current church's behavior.

Paul was an Apostle.

You and I are not Apostles. And we have no right to judge anyone's salvation. If you can't see the difference, then I weep for you.

You really want to say that? Do you ever evangelize? If you do, you're not following your own ideas. The Great Commission? (beat) Paul wanted us to be like him and to imitate him. What more can I give you?

<Sigh> Read the whole sentence. PLEASE!

I did.

I'm talking about you, me, and everyone else, both on this Forum and elsewhere.

You didn't name your problem with my post.

I should hope so! Being offensive gets us nowhere.

Being hypertolerant might be even worse...

And SBG:

SBG · Apr 23, 2005

Vance said:
The whole 'if you believe X, you WILL be led to believe Y" mantra doesn't stand if it can be shown that it does not happen. A phantom menace. Nothing about a "belief in evolution" inevitably leads to a loss of salvation. Period. Not even close. A belief that Genesis is meant to be read figuratively doesn't cause a loss of salvation. Even believing that Creation Science (not the creation) is based on a foundation of lies will lead to a loss of salvation.

What is much more likely to cause a loss of souls in the Kingdom is the dogmatic presentation of YEC'ism.

Ah, so those people whom I have talked with, and those people others on here have talked with, aren't really *real* people then?

The argument I have encountered for a loss of belief in God because of evolution, creation has never even entered the argument.

But according to you, these people don't exist. Or you just calling us all liars.

SBG · Apr 23, 2005

butxifxnot said:
And SBG:

Right back you!

ASLER86 · Apr 23, 2005

SBG said:
Vance brought up an interesting question that I would like to expand on.

If a person truly believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but also believes the following things, are they saved?

-they reject Genesis and all it says
-they reject the whole Old Testament
-they reject the Virgin Birth
-they reject Jesus raising from the dead
-they reject Jesus' second coming
-they reject Jesus being the only way to the Father
-they worship other gods, but believe Jesus is a higher God

There are actually people I know who believe and do these things. They will profess with passion, that they are saved because they believe Jesus is the Son of God, and they tell you that they have a different interpretation than yours and yours is no more correct than theirs.

Do you correct them, or fall in line with this 'you can interpret anyway you choose and be right, still?'

Are they saved?

Furthermore, I know a few people who will tell me the same professing faith, but yet they do not follow Jesus Christ. They call Him their Savior and believe He is the True Son of God, but they do not pick up their cross and follow Him. They believe the Bible supports being saved by just this one belief that Jesus is the Son of God and they need to do nothing more.

Are they saved?

Well, no one can judge someone on their salvation besides God...but here are a few things to consider in light of what the Bible says:

-The coming of Christ is the fulfillment of the OT, and the NT refers to passages in the OT, including Christ himself.

-The Bible says that there is only One God

-It also says that there is only one way to Heaven (John 14:6)

-The Bible discusses the second coming

If they are to believe what you mentioned above, then they are pretty much ignoring the entire Bible, not just the Old Testament.

The Bible also says that even the demons believe that there is God and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God....and tremble.

And about those professing faith in Christ but feeling as if they should do nothing more....once again we cannot judge. The Bible also mentions that faith without works is dead. It is by our works that our faith is shown to others...

Delta One · Apr 24, 2005

Hello seebs,

Honestly, until Judgment Day, I don't know how we could say whether or not they are saved. Why not look at their fruits? Do they display meekness, temperance, and charity? If so, they probably don't need our concern.

God judges people by His will. That said, their fruits are of no consequence as to whether or not they will be saved. Jesus died on the cross to wipe away our sins. However, if one accepts Jesus, then their life should show it through Christ like attitudes and behaviour. I will admit that I've got a reasonably short fuse. If someone drives 40 km/h in a 60 km/h for kilometres I will get very ticked very quickly. That's just apart of who I am. Many atheists show these qualities that you listed - will they be saved? Not until they believe that Jesus is LORD and Saviour who died for their sins (according to the Bible).

Delta One.

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