Christians that accept evolution going to hell?

LewisWildermuth · Jul 27, 2003

I am moving this from a thread in the Science, Creation and Evolution forum to this Forum because I think it fits here better.

First is my Question to Ikester then in quote form Ikesters compleat reply.

Okay Ikester...

You think that because I am a theistic evolutionist I will go to hell?

Can you tell me where Jesus said this?

Even if evolution is not true, do you think God will throw those who accepted it into hell simply because they somehow misread what biology and geology seems to indicate? That acceptance of Jesus and his forgiveness has nothing to do with salvation but geology and biology have everything to do with whether you get into heaven or not?

I find nothing in the Bible to suggest this, where do you find it?

ikester7579 said:
Your opinion is fine. It's debating something where the arguement is not really with me. For if it is said in God's word, then your arguement is with him.
I'll go ahead and post the verse.

Revelation 22:18-19, 18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This is the main reason I believe in the six day creation. If I change God's word than these things shall happen to me. This is why I argue the point about adding things to the word of God. Would you want me not to tell you these things? Keep it a secret and watch things happen?
God judges in his own time. He does not always set judgement(punishment) right as someone is doing it(breaking his set law). Because he is a merciful God he allows someone to repent. And after he has given all the chances for this person to do so, then judgement comes.

This is one of the few things mentioned in the Bible that not only tells you what not to do, but gives you what an exact punishment for doing it. A decided punishment. The next verse shows what happens if your name is taken out of the book of life.

Revelation 20:15, 15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now God will give a person every chance to correct an error such as this because he is merciful. And he does not want to see anyone cast into the lake of fire. But if the sin keeps coming up before him, what do you think he will do? He will do as any judge will do when a law is set and someone keeps breaking it. He will set punishment.

I know this sounds like I'm passing Judgement. But it is not. For I cannot pass judgement on anyone here for I also sin and fall short of his glory. This is why repentance is needed. These verses came from the Bible, not from me. I just explained them a little in detail so they become clearer. For what is spoken here applies to all. There will be no one exempt from this judgement, not even me.

For even the bible says there are 2 judgement thrones. Which both the saved and the unsaved shall be judged. And it does not say that all the saved shall rejoice in heaven after the judgement. I think the ones who believe they go to heaven regardless of what they do are gonna be in for a big surprise. If you want more details on this subject, p.m. me. I will not post it because it is so arguementitive from both sides.

If it is true that ones opinion of the creation process has nothing to do with salvation, just as Paul said about the traditional Jewish diet, then is not your throwing it out as a stumbling block condemning people to hell that otherwise would have converted?

LewisWildermuth · Jul 27, 2003

ikester7579 said:
Your opinion is fine. It's debating something where the arguement is not really with me. For if it is said in God's word, then your arguement is with him.
I'll go ahead and post the verse.

But I am not in disagreement with what the words are, I am in disagreement with your interpretation of them.

Ikester, you are not God, you may be in error. Knowing that you may be in error you have gone on and pronounced that hell awaits me, pushing Jesus to the side and taking the judgment seat for yourself.

This is the main reason I believe in the six day creation. If I change God's word than these things shall happen to me.

So you are a YED not because you think it is right but because you fear Jesus sacrifice is not enough to cover the sin of thinking on your own.

This is why I argue the point about adding things to the word of God. Would you want me not to tell you these things? Keep it a secret and watch things happen?

No I do not expect you to sit and do nothing, but I do expect you to be willing to admit that as a human your opinion of scripture might be in error instead of claiming that you know the mind of God.

You should not expect me to sit aside either if I feel that you are in error.

God judges in his own time. He does not always set judgement(punishment) right as someone is doing it(breaking his set law). Because he is a merciful God he allows someone to repent. And after he has given all the chances for this person to do so, then judgement comes.

So the blood of Jesus is not enough to prevent me or anyone else that accepts evolution from going to hell because we some how misunderstood the evidence? That accepting Jesus into ones heart takes a back seat to whether or not one is a six day YEC when it comes to salvation?

This is one of the few things mentioned in the Bible that not only tells you what not to do, but gives you what an exact punishment for doing it. A decided punishment. The next verse shows what happens if your name is taken out of the book of life.

Again, what about the Bible have I changed but the way I look at it? Will I be condemned to hell for looking it as a spiritual guide rather than a history book?

Now God will give a person every chance to correct an error such as this because he is merciful. And he does not want to see anyone cast into the lake of fire. But if the sin keeps coming up before him, what do you think he will do? He will do as any judge will do when a law is set and someone keeps breaking it. He will set punishment.

Again, I have only changed the way I look at the Bible, not the Bible it self.

I know this sounds like I'm passing Judgement. But it is not. For I cannot pass judgement on anyone here for I also sin and fall short of his glory. This is why repentance is needed. These verses came from the Bible, not from me. I just explained them a little in detail so they become clearer. For what is spoken here applies to all. There will be no one exempt from this judgement, not even me.

Again, Ikester, you are placing your opinion about what the Bible says above everyone else, including God.

For even the bible says there are 2 judgement thrones. Which both the saved and the unsaved shall be judged. And it does not say that all the saved shall rejoice in heaven after the judgement. I think the ones who believe they go to heaven regardless of what they do are gonna be in for a big surprise. If you want more details on this subject, p.m. me. I will not post it because it is so arguementitive from both sides.

No, I will not.

You will allow you to run and cower to the land of IM's. If you believe this to be truly God's will why do you refuse to talk about it publicly?

ikester7579 · Jul 27, 2003

I thought that singling someone out in a thread was something that goes against the rules here? This thread was put here just for me, right?

And you wondered why I would not post that subject. This is the very reason. I will not participate in this thread. You will not drag me into an arguement like this that is focused just on me alone. This is a forum. If you have a problem with something I said, you can either p.m. me like I suggested. Or report my post. I will not play your game.

Note for the moderator: This is where this started. http://www.christianforums.com/t47958&page=3
I put this here so you don't have to search for it.

LewisWildermuth · Jul 27, 2003

I did not mean that this thread was open to only Ikester or I, as far as I am concerned anyone is free to join, and I wish others to join.

I will continue this thread without Ikester if necessary because I feel it is an important issue.

Is the belief in a particular form of creationism, whether it be YEC OEC or theistic evolution, a core salvation issue?

Does being one or another risk hellfire?

I do not believe so, but I have seen a growing trend in many Christians that is making it so.

This is dangerous, because even if one is right, if it is not a necessary core belief for salvation you are pushing away people who would otherwise come to church.

I moved this discussion to this area because I wanted only input from fellow Christians, no matter their belief of creation. I did not want interference from non-believers.

With that said I will pose the question again to everyone including Ikester.

Is a particular creationistic view necessary for salvation? If so state the view and backing scriptures.

If it is not a salvation issue, is it important enough to risk alienating souls and turning people away from the church? Why?

wblastyn · Jul 27, 2003

According to these forums in order to be a Christian you must accept the Nicene Creed (a summary of Christianity), since it says nothing about believing literal Genesis then taking it as non-literal is fine. Plus if it was really important Jesus would have said "repent, be baptised and believe in literal Genesis.

SonWorshipper · Jul 27, 2003

DO I see a troll?

LewisWildermuth · Jul 27, 2003

SonWorshipper said:
DO I see a troll?

On my part, no.

I truly believe that this issue need to be settled.

I have seen more and more creationist groups pushing that anyone who accepts evolution scientifically is going to hell.

I have seen no evidence in the Bible that acceptance of evolution is an "ultimate sin". But if there is I wish to know.

I see many Christians that do not necessarily agree with these radical creationists sitting in silence and thus giving them the green light to drive people who would otherwise have converted out of churches.

If an acceptance of evolution is not a salvation issue then to kick someone out of the flock and proclaim eternal judgment on their soul is IMO an even worse sin that accepting a wrong idea could ever be.

This is an issue that must be dealt with, if it is a salvation issue than the church as a whole must say so and do what it must to empty the church of it.

If it is not a salvation issue the church must stand up to those that claim it is and quit driving away our brothers in Christ over a difference of opinion that really doesn't matter in the long run.

In my opinion, to stand silent when another is being stoned over such a trivial matter is to be just as guilty as the person casting the stones.

We can no longer afford to be lukewarm on the issue of evolutions effect on salvation lest by silence we condem those who would be saved to hell.

wblastyn · Jul 27, 2003

SonWorshipper said:
DO I see a troll?

It's the largest troll I've ever seen!

wblastyn · Jul 27, 2003

LewisWildermuth said:
On my part, no.

I think he was refering to my sig hehe.

CrossMovement · Jul 28, 2003

LewisWildermuth said:
I am moving this from a thread in the Science, Creation and Evolution forum to this Forum because I think it fits here better.

First is my Question to Ikester then in quote form Ikesters compleat reply.

Okay Ikester...

You think that because I am a theistic evolutionist I will go to hell?

Can you tell me where Jesus said this?

Even if evolution is not true, do you think God will throw those who accepted it into hell simply because they somehow misread what biology and geology seems to indicate? That acceptance of Jesus and his forgiveness has nothing to do with salvation but geology and biology have everything to do with whether you get into heaven or not?

I find nothing in the Bible to suggest this, where do you find it?

If it is true that ones opinion of the creation process has nothing to do with salvation, just as Paul said about the traditional Jewish diet, then is not your throwing it out as a stumbling block condemning people to hell that otherwise would have converted?

NOBODY can answer this question because we are NOT the JUDGE , God is the Judge not us.

Did Judas went to hell ? We don't know because it is not stated that he really went to hell.

God will decided , their is not another person that can answer that question. Yes we can speculated on that but we will never know until the judgement day

LewisWildermuth · Jul 28, 2003

CrossMovement said:
NOBODY can answer this question because we are NOT the JUDGE , God is the Judge not us.

Did Judas went to hell ? We don't know because it is not stated that he really went to hell.

God will decided , their is not another person that can answer that question. Yes we can speculated on that but we will never know until the judgement day

I know that in the end nobody but God can know the true answer to this question.

The reason I ask it here and now is that even though God is the only one who does know the ultimate fate of ones soul, every day I am confronted, either here or on the TV or in Churches I have attended, with the attitude of "anyone who accepts evolution cannot be a Christian". Just look in the Science forum on this board and you will see this said in one way or another over and over again.

Since people are saying this I wish to know why and what Biblical references back them up since they are definitely judging ones eternal state on whether one accepts evolution or not.

So far only Ikester has even bothered to justify his opinion with any type of thought out argument at all. For this I will give him credit, he is the only one so far that has even bothered to defend his beliefs. I may not agree with him and I still am in a private debate with him over this issue, but I have more respect for him because he is at least willing to be upfront about his belief and not hide in the shadows.

I know that on this board he is not alone in this belief that somehow acceptance of evolution is a serious salvation issue, but for now he is the only one with the courage to speak about it. And again, I have more respect for him now for it.

Sinai · Jul 28, 2003

LewisWildermuth said:
Is the belief in a particular form of creationism, whether it be YEC OEC or theistic evolution, a core salvation issue?

Does being one or another risk hellfire?

I do not believe so.....

You're in good company, Lewis. Dr. Herschel H. Hobbs, who is probably one of the most respected theologians and Bible scholars of the past century, stated:

“The fact is that the Bible does not say dogmatically how long the creative period lasted. The Hebrew word for “day” (yom), like the English word, may mean any number of things: twenty-four hours, a generation, an era, or an indefinite period of time. Since the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Genesis 1, it must be concluded that he did not spell out this detail. Had he said “a twenty-four hour day” or “indefinite period of time” that would settle it. But since he did not do so, the time element is not a vital point in faith.”

...but I have seen a growing trend in many Christians that is making it so.

This is dangerous, because even if one is right, if it is not a necessary core belief for salvation you are pushing away people who would otherwise come to church.

This is one of my major concerns as well. Too many times well meaning Christians seem to be more intent on following the example of the Pharisees rather than that of Christ. Not only are they gallantly fighting battles over nonessential issues and painting themselves into corners in the process, but they may be driving people away from salvation instead of following the Great Commission.....

Revolution Cry · Aug 1, 2003

Gen. was written at a time when God was teaching the israelites how to simply LIVE.
Those dietary constraints? Think about it ... most of those constraints were placed for health reasons, parasites and bacteria run rampant in most of the animals that the Israelites were forbidden from eating.

If the people can't figure out how to simply stay alive, desert or no, I have huge doubts as to whether or not God would want to dump the full scientific understanding of how he created the whole thing.
I suppose he could have given the Israelites complex mathmatical formulas for the different laws of nature. He could have fully explained how he brought the different forms of matter into being. He could have explained all of the big cosmological questions ...

Guess what. He didn't.
He told the people exactly what they needed to know. He gave them what they could handle. He said "Here's the basic run-down." Something they could easily understand.

So is it something that faith should be contingent on? Not in my opinion ... course ... the key word there is opinion.

Now, for the science part ...
I think there are a lot of pretty big holes in the evolutionary theory. I can't prescribe to it as being the end all of how things were brought about. Many are begining to take evolution as a scientific paradigm. Something that is tried and tested, and that seems to never be disproven. I think there seems to be just a few to many inconsistancies to start saying that ... but then, I'm no scientist.

What I do know is that all throughout history humans have suggested scientific theories and people have taken them as rock-solid fact, only to be thrown a curve-ball centuries later and finding out that their own logical conclusions have been flawed.

The paradigms keep shifting. The "truth" that our logic derives is subjective. Can flawed beings come up with a perfect form of thought?

But you can look at it at the other angle as well. When it was suggested that the earth was not the center of the universe, people scoffed. The Church openly condemned the idea as being heretical. Progress was stumped because people were placing huge amounts of faith in ideas and thoughts and theologies, and not God and the Cross.

Draw your lines where you will. Take your educated guesses and make your intellectual stances. Just keep in mind that you are saved by the blood of Christ, and for the love of God's glory alone. Nothing more, and nothing less, because all the rest of this on-going conversation will eventually fall to dust and that is all that will remain.

Edouard · Aug 2, 2003

Evolution: First question what form do you believe in?

Do you believe God created the world and everythiong in it?

How do you believe this process took place?

These are the first questions I would ask you.
My viewpoint, God created the universe in six days and on the seventh he rested. So, how long was each day? In the N.T. God tells us a day is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day. TO God time is not important from this aspect. It has meaning but not in the sense we think of.

Now, do you believe God created man in His own image? ( Book of Genesis ).

Do you believe in CHrist, his sacrifice and ressurrection? do you praise him, pray to him and worship him?

Do you believe God is all-knowing, and all-powerful?
There are a lot of questions to be answered before we could assess where you stand!

As a christian family we should not judge negatiely unles there is just cause, blatant sin.Even then we are told to encourage to change. without luck before the elders, deacons, one on one, then before the church. If no luck, then allow them to be a part of the church with no active role ( teaching, ministring ect.. )

Still make them feel loved, not out casts.
Edouard
God loved u so much he sent His one and only son..
God created man in His own image.
also read Jeremiah 1. might give you all some more insight on your own life

wblastyn · Aug 2, 2003

Edouard said:
Evolution: First question what form do you believe in?

There is only one form.

Do you believe God created the world and everything in it?

Yes.

How do you believe this process took place?

He set up the universe to basically create itself, but whether the universe can actually run without God or not i don't know, but I say it couldn't.

So, how long was each day?

The days are literal days within the story but the story itself is not literal.

Now, do you believe God created man in His own image?

To be "in the image of" someone means you represent them, so I believe God chose us out of the animal kingdom to represent him (kinda like an ambassador).

Do you believe in CHrist, his sacrifice and ressurrection? do you praise him, pray to him and worship him?

Yes.

Do you believe God is all-knowing, and all-powerful?

Yes.

LewisWildermuth · Aug 4, 2003

Edouard said:
Evolution: First question what form do you believe in?

There is only one basic theory of evolution in science, there may be several competing theories over things like what came from exactly what and when, but the general theory stands alone as the last current un-falsified theory.

I also do not "believe" in evolution, I accept it provisionally, as soon as the theory of evolution is falsified or rewritten because of a discovered error I will no longer accept it as provisionally true.

Do you believe God created the world and everythiong in it?

Yes, God is the underlying force of all existence.

How do you believe this process took place?

All evidence that God has left in nature seems to point to A creation event (or Big Bang) about 14bya or so. Then natural processes that were laid out in that creation event eventually led to us here and now.

So, how long was each day?

In the context of the story it was one day, 12 hours from dawn to dusk. But I do not assume that the story is literal.

In the N.T. God tells us a day is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day.

I believe the reference is actually from Psalms, not the NT.

Now, do you believe God created man in His own image? ( Book of Genesis ).

Do I believe that God has arms, legs and body odor? No. Are we in his image in a spiritual sense? Maybe. Or maybe we were to be his ambassadors as wblastyn inferred. Maybe we are in His image because we can think ad reason... I am not going to claim to know the mind of God and say that Ha meant image to mean exactly this and nothing else.

Do you believe in CHrist, his sacrifice and ressurrection? do you praise him, pray to him and worship him?

Yes.

Do you believe God is all-knowing, and all-powerful?

Yes.

There are a lot of questions to be answered before we could assess where you stand!

As a christian family we should not judge negatiely unles there is just cause, blatant sin.Even then we are told to encourage to change. without luck before the elders, deacons, one on one, then before the church. If no luck, then allow them to be a part of the church with no active role ( teaching, ministring ect.. )

Still make them feel loved, not out casts.
Edouard
God loved u so much he sent His one and only son..
God created man in His own image.
also read Jeremiah 1. might give you all some more insight on your own life

I am not asking for a personal assessment of my faith but opinions on a general point.

Is the acceptance of evolution a sin?

Is it enough to keep one out of heaven thus a salvation issue?

Are there Biblical verses to back up the idea that it is a sin and could keep you out of heaven?

If it cannot be proven to be any of these is it a good idea to shove people away from the church over this idea?

Revolution Cry · Aug 5, 2003

LewisWildermuth said:
There is only one basic theory of evolution in science, there may be several competing theories over things like what came from exactly what and when, but the general theory stands alone as the last current un-falsified theory.

well ... you've got your darwinists and your post-darwinists. Then your Mendellists who believe that natural selection alone and without aid can completely account for all variation.
You've got your micro-evolutionists, and your macro-evolutionists.

... there really are quite a few different variations of 'evolution' out there. the tie that binds is the theory of natural selection. that's about the only constant.

I believe that I can, however, disprove natural selection quite easily.
Natural Selection states that the fittest and smartest members of a species will go on procreate and pass on their genes, and that the least fit, and least intelligent will not be able to.

I am from Tennessee. And I can guarantee you that the stupid people outnumber everybody else at least 10 to 1, and I'm betting in about 15 years, they'll out number the rest of us a good 50 to1.

I also do not "believe" in evolution, I accept it provisionally, as soon as the theory of evolution is falsified or rewritten because of a discovered error I will no longer accept it as provisionally true.

in all seriousness, science cannot ascertain how non-life really turned over into life, or abiogenesis, and that is a huge problem with all theories of evolution.
First you have to form aminoacids ... which has been accomplished in lab results using a varying array of gases that might have been in the early earths atmosphere and an electric charge. Problem is, the only electric charge you're going to be able to find that long ago is going to be a lightening strike and an electric charge that strong would chargrill all our new-found aminoacid friends.

Then you of course have to account for the pre-cambrian explosion, and then the permian explosion ... and those aren't things that we have been able to produce answers to. There are just no reliable reasons for those things.

Crusadar · Aug 5, 2003

Crusadar said:
In the debate of creation and evolution I have made clear as to my stand on the word of God. The Bible is the inspired word of God and cannot be compromised in any way or we risk losing our portion in Gods kingdom. We are either for God or against Him. There is no middle ground where one can lollygag in hopes of finding the right answer. There is only one right answer, and I am sure many Christians will agree it is not in any theory but in our personal walk with JC. Faith in God does not rest on creationism or evolution being proven or disproved. The only answer is the Lord Jesus Christ. Until JC rules your heart you will not see the truth of Gods love. For what one uses to rationalize ones faith is determined by the presence of JC in their lives, and it is His presence that has revealed to me that the God of the Bible is not a god of an old earth but one of infinite love and mercy.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 5, 2003

There are elements of evolution which make sence and would work in a world where every possible element or chance variation of every creature already existed. However, since we cannot say where the long necked giraffe came from (or the short necked giraffe for that matter), then evolution does not have a starting point. Where did all the species that were selected (and deselected) come from???
The biggest problem I find is where did man come from. Even the most conservative date puts the emergence of modern man at no more than 20000 years BC. Men of that period were essentially no different from men of today. Take a man from 8000 BC, plop him in a public school, and he will be playing video games with the best of them.
Christians who believe in evolution are not going to hell. They are just mistaken.

Rafael · Aug 6, 2003

Love believes all things, and at least tries to give the benefit of the doubt to anybody that calls upon the name of the Lord. I shy away from judging anyone to hell for fear of ending up sitting on a hot rock right next to them - for the scripture says that we will receive the same judgment that we dish out or the same mercy.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Evolution is a theory to me and God isn't. I don't limit Him with my understanding.

Christians that accept evolution going to hell?

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