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Take comfort that that person who was mean to you will burn in hell for all eternity isn't revenge fantasy? Or are you saying it isn't revenge fantasy because you're the one doing it.
I expect so, at times, some more than others. But I do want to address your problems. That is, why you are not able to be fair. You cannot blame someone else for that. You can explain that you get worn down; that is a natural, normal thing when you are in a degrading environment.Then let's not talk about me. Do Christians make an unconscious decision to be unfair?
Ok, what about discouragement? Does a Christian discourage sexual freedom more than atheist in general / naturally? Is this described best as "prudence"? Do you think a Christian is no different than a non-Christian regarding sexual freedoms?I would disagree. Christians often confuse "it's none of my business what you do" with encouragement.
Maybe. Credible research does support it. I don't know many of the majority of Christians though, I only know the ones I have encountered. I would not agree the majority of them hate atheists, but I know some do. Some find atheists (perhaps rightfully, depending on their experiences) quite difficult and offensive.Okay. If I say "by and large the majority of Christians hate atheists" then we have agreement?
Is this fair? I only know my own view of an atheist perspective at any given time. Doesn't everyone? Of course, I have never actually believed an atheist perspective to be most likely true. I do consider it sometimes though. It is fair that it is not as refined as someone who has considered it to be true. I think you are just arguing though, there is nothing to achieve by attacking my atheist perspective here. It has been corrected on that thread, by the way.How do you know the atheist's perspective? You don't. You know the Christian-strawman-atheist's perspective.
Ok, but that is just people. Christians get the same treatment. This was shown to me on Sunday:You realize how compassionate Christians really are when they find you're not one of them. Then they throw rocks at you. That is the opposite of compassion. You wouldn't know what that's like.
I don't see these as supporting an idea that belief is more important than attitude. Can you please explain why you draw that meaning from these statements?Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Galatians 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Romans 4:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Not at all. The late Christopher Hitchens was never chased out of town by an angry mob wielding pitchforks and torches. He was invited onto talk shows, and given opportunity to write articles about his atheistic views in prominent magazines and newspapers, and generally lauded by the liberal left of American culture. If his treatment is anything to go by, atheists do very well in America - certainly not any worse than the average Christian.Yes, but as I said earlier, they are being persecuted on the other side of the world. Do you disagree that it is worse to be an atheist in our society than a Christian?
No. Not generally. It is pertinent to our discussion to note that in the recent past in countries where atheistic, anti-religious regimes held power, Christians were routinely murdered for their faith. Whatever your experience might be as atheist in western culture, it does not compare to what Christians have experienced when godless, anti-religious governments have been in power.Do you disagree that it is prudent for an atheist to hide their disbelief from Christians in our society for fear of repercussions personal, physical, or professional?
This is silly. Films that are directly philosophically and morally opposed to Christianity are made all the time in America. And it doesn't matter one bit if Christians cry about them; they are made anyway.Not really. Can we find 10 films which are specifically atheist? How about Muslim? Jewish? That 10 is hands and feet above what is made for the rest of us. Such films can't be made because Christians will cry.
I think I have already pointed out that a survey here would be from entirely too small a sample.Yes, but when we take a census, or a survey we look at a tiny sample (called a representative sample) to represent the views and characteristics of the whole. Is there some reason why ChristianForums is not a representative sample?
And if I can point to many Christians who are not anti-science, anti-progress (whatever that means), or anti-rationality, what then? What about Christians like Dr. Alvin Plantinga, or Dr. J.P. Moreland, or Dr. William Lane Craig, or Greg Koukl, or Paul Copan, or Larry Taunton, or Dr. Gary Habermas, or Dr. Holly Ordway, or Dr. Hugh Ross, or Dr. Francis Collins, or Dr. John Lennox...well, you get the idea, I hope. Clearly, not all of Christianity is looking to deny reason and science at every turn.No, not this time. I am no claiming that you are anti-science, anti-progress, or anti-rationality. I am saying that so many Christians come out and specifically, and intentionally say that Christians are against those things, that the problem very clearly comes from your house.
Again, I offered that description of atheists as a hypothetical.Atheists aren't the ones claiming that they are immoral, arrogant and bloodthirsty. That again, comes from Christians (your house).
I don't follow you here. The accusations Christians make about atheists are declarations.Your comparing the Christian accusation toward atheists, with a Christian declaration by Christians and saying that they're equivalent.
Well, in a free society where anyone can say what they like, sometimes people may speak to you in a way you don't appreciate. It is just one of the hard realities of freedom.I would very much like it if Christians were to cease accusing me of everything they accuse me of.
In your opinion and limited experience.You guys don't offer many positive characteristics to choose from.
Inasmuch as atheists embrace a worldview that is fundamentally contrary to Christianity, how should Christians view atheists? If I go on Youtube and look at the comments of atheists that accumulate below many Christian videos, I see a rabid hatred of Christians and their beliefs. As I said from the beginning of our exchange, the unpleasantness isn't all on one side. If atheists want to be treated well, they need to give what they desire to receive.Christians have chosen to take on atheists as an enemy.
No. Was it supposed to?See? Did that hurt?
Do you think being an atheist is superior to being a Christian? If not, why are you an atheist and not a Christian?Again, the quotation does not say that Christian culture as a whole is superior, only that where Christian culture is influenced more by the divine teachings of Christ than the wisdom of men the resulting morality is of a superior kind.So is that to say that a Christian who is influenced more by God than the surrounding society is superior to an atheist? A culture is merely a collection of individuals after all.
Why don't you ask the person who made the comment? I'm not arguing for a statement I never made.However, this is a specious argument. What morality do you, as part of the superior Christian culture, exercise that a non-Christian does not?
Well, so what? I get the same sort of response from atheists when I press them to defend their viewpoint better than they do. Goes with the territory of discussion and debate. If you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.Sure they are. However, if I then claim that I don't believe these claims, I get attacked. If I ask for evidence for these claims, I get attacked, or the claimant whines and complains that I always ask for evidence of their claims.
This is silly. There are a great many other people claiming to be Christians who I believe truly are. I most certainly don't suspect all other Christians of a false conversion!And all of these claims need to be assessed in the light of the contents of the defining source of Christian doctrine and practice, the Bible. It is the foundational source of Christian belief - or it ought to be - not the individual Christian (who may not be truly Christian at all).Yes, but this is still something that all Christians say. You all suspect that all the others aren't really Christian.
I never said, nor meant, that if someone says or does something not in the Bible, they are not Christian. Skiing is not in the Bible; neither is golfing. Are these things therefore immoral? If someone skis or golfs do they prove they are not Christian by doing so? Of course not. If someone says, "I like chocolate!" are they not a Christian because such a statement is not found in Scripture? To think so would be ridiculous.So if someone says or does something that isn't in the Bible, they are not a Christian? Say someone takes comfort in the suffering of others?
Yes. But this doesn't mean every Christian reading the Bible can have their own interpretation of Scripture. The Bible itself limits how any part of it may be understood.Great. Not the point. It is up to Christians to interpret what the Bible says, yes?
Very little. As an atheist, you are quite hamstrung in participating in discussions about Christian doctrine - unless, of course, you know the Bible well.I don't believe in divine authority, so if a Christian says "Christians believe..." on what basis do I have to disagree?
Reasonably, you can only assume that what the individual Christian says about their faith is only what they believe. If you want to be sure they are asserting beliefs common to the faith, you must check with the Bible, the primary source of Christian belief.It is up to other Christians to say they disagree. If you don't, one must assume the initial claim is what Christians believe.
I don't see that the distinctions you make here alter my point any.Your response here completely misses (or ignores?) my point. Whether or not atheism can be called a religion has nothing to do with the reasonableness of tarring all those who can be identified by a particular characteristic (like atheism or Christian faith) with the same brush. You would object stridently, I think, if I suggested that because a certain serial killer was atheistic in his view all atheists must therefore be serial killers. Such a charge on my part would be outrageous! But this is essentially what you are trying to do with Christians.But Christianity is not simply a characteristic. It is a belief system. One that I am told influences everything you do. It is also a characteristic that comes from an external source, that is to say it is something you learn.
You don't get to decide what the phrase "the world" means. That is solely the right of the text. And the text clearly indicates what I've said: "the world" refers to people, not to place. As we know from both the immediate context surrounding John 3:16 and a multitude of other qualifying verses and passages from Scripture, Jesus did not come to save a place but to save people. That you would even attempt to argue this with me shows just how deeply and irrationally antagonistic you are to anything a Christian may say.Yes, it does. "The world" is an implicit reference to all people, most of whom are unbelievers.No it isn't. The world is a place, and presumably one of God's creations.
No one's asking you to decide anything for Christians. There really isn't any debate about what constitutes a genuine Christian. The Bible is very clear. Unfortunately, its clarity cannot guarantee that people will not claim the title "Christian" illegitimately.But understand, from an outsider's point of view: It doesn't matter what God's word says. You can all climb all over yourselves to decide who a true Christian is, but unless you reach an agreement, I can't decide for you.
I disagree. If you say "I believe pigs can fly!" and I respond, "That belief is stupid," it is implicit in my remark that the one who holds the stupid belief is, at least in some measure, stupid for holding it. Likewise, when Dawkins says that "faith is one of the world's great evils," in doing so, he condemns those who exercise such faith as a great evil also.Okay, but so far the "not nice things" these two have said have not been personal attacks on believers, but on belief itself.
As I said, I'm not going to argue degree with you. That's a red herring as far as I'm concerned. And, again, I have not made any statement of my own about Christianity being a superior culture and I have explained now twice that you're plainly misreading the quotation from which you are arguing about this point.Not nice, but not the same as what I have been posting. And it should be a matter of the degree of unpleasantness. You're the ones claiming to be a superior culture!
Read through my posts on this site.And how has your expertise been determined?
Oh, the verses say what they say all right. But those verses don't stand in isolation from all that the rest of the Bible says, nor are they impervious to the light of good hermeneutics.To answer your questions it is necessary to ask some basic hermeneutical questions:Or it might just say what it says.
1.) To whom was the writer writing?
2.) What is the form of the writing?
3.) What is the cultural context of the writing?
4.) What is the immediate scriptural context surrounding what is written?
5.) How does the entire context of Scripture qualify or clarify what is written?
As you can see, actually explaining how the verses you quoted are best understood will not be possible in a few short comments.
I'm afraid your comments here hardly give me strong incentive to make an explanation of the verses you cited. Clearly, you are not interested in understanding, but only in declaring and fortifying your position. I'm not about to invest the significant time and effort necessary to do as you want when I'm assured of nothing more than the satisfaction of your idle curiosity.But take your time. I've asked this question a half dozen times, and have been presented with dozens of different explanations ranging from "Pslams doesn't count" to "hate means justice, for some reason, in this context alone". I'd be curious, so take your time.
The comfort is that they won't ultimately get away with it. They'll either repent, or get what's coming to them. We're supposed to pray for the repentance.
"Christians are very different from unbelievers."
"So to me an athiest is a lesser person who is closed minded and shallow."
"Atheists lack the huge body of spiritual knowledge that believers have, thus making them unqualified to provide for the general welfare as elected officials."
"I dislike atheists because theyre the rudest, nastiest, most ignorant, and most dishonest people Ive ever met. "
"...atheists are the most immoral, unethical, and non trustworthyGroup in Society."
So other than, being lesser people, closed minded, shallow, unqualified to be elected officials, rude, nasty, ignorant, dishonest, and the most immoral, unethical, and most untrustworthy group in society, how else are atheists/non-Christians very different from Christians?
Yeah, but you'll be just as content to watch these mean people endlessly burn in hell for all eternity for being mean to you. How is that not a revenge fantasy.
My best friend was gay. My wife was Jewish. My mother was agnostic. Do you take comfort that all of them are to suffer in hell for eternity?
I expect so, at times, some more than others. But I do want to address your problems. That is, why you are not able to be fair. You cannot blame someone else for that. You can explain that you get worn down; that is a natural, normal thing when you are in a degrading environment.
Ok, what about discouragement? Does a Christian discourage sexual freedom more than atheist in general / naturally? Is this described best as "prudence"? Do you think a Christian is no different than a non-Christian regarding sexual freedoms?
Maybe. Credible research does support it. I don't know many of the majority of Christians though, I only know the ones I have encountered. I would not agree the majority of them hate atheists, but I know some do. Some find atheists (perhaps rightfully, depending on their experiences) quite difficult and offensive.
Is this fair? I only know my own view of an atheist perspective at any given time.
Doesn't everyone? Of course, I have never actually believed an atheist perspective to be most likely true.
I do consider it sometimes though. It is fair that it is not as refined as someone who has considered it to be true. I think you are just arguing though, there is nothing to achieve by attacking my atheist perspective here. It has been corrected on that thread, by the way.
Ok, but that is just people. Christians get the same treatment. This was shown to me on Sunday:
They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.
.. and of course you know that Jesus said the world might hate His disciples, because it hated Him too.
What do you think, it is all about being offended? Is it all about being told we are not as important or right as we like to feel, or in a similar way, being treated in a way we don't like, and we feel we do not deserve?
I don't see these as supporting an idea that belief is more important than attitude. Can you please explain why you draw that meaning from these statements?
BTW: JGG, I do accept the description "revenge fantasy", but I view it as a real possibility. Because we all have caused others to resent us, we do require forgiveness.
Matthew 6 (Jesus says)
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
I expect nobody should be more right to resent me than God. Especially since I declare faith in Him, and then behave so poorly when others are judging me for it. It is more comfortable to lose sight of this, and resist it from being exposed. Maybe this motivates Christians to find comfort by assuming they are forgiven. (Not suggesting it isn't true, just describing a possible cause).
I have actually only expected that you would place that expectation on yourself. I do admit, I have some higher expectation of your fairness than some Christians I would talk to, but due to your mental capacity. You are quite intelligent, though you have suffered in many ways, which has caused you to form some beliefs/attitudes, and then you will respond this way, which is not how you would respond if your life's circumstances had been more ideal. My purpose for raising this point, is for your sake. Since I think in normal conditions you would prefer to be fair, and perhaps you were not aware of the way you were behaving.Again, why do you place such a high expectation on me to be fair, but no expectation on Christians to be fair?
"Yes" to which question? I don't expect "yes" fits all three.Yes.
Not me. My impression of atheists is from experience. I had not heard of the expression "atheist" until about two weeks before I joined this website. My impression is therefore not a result of indoctrination. You may not expect to learn this, but that is actually the truth in my case.Perhaps, but most know about atheists through the "hypothetical atheist" that is preached about in churches.
Is this not typical for an atheist?The one who claims that the universe is an accident.
Ok, but I would rather investigate the full extent of the meaning in this. It seems to potentially have some truth, if not for a majority of atheists, then a significant proportion. Perhaps the most vocal and blatant proportion, that causes a misconception like you have in the converse.The one who hates God.
I would not accept the word "cause" because we know the cause is natural, but rather I would suggest that Christians are expressly much less comfortable with sexual deviance than atheists. Do you know the percentage of people who have been turned off from Christianity because of it's views on sexuality? Take it further, how many people become atheist with this as their primary (even if suppressed) motivator? (eg, polygamy, homosexuality, masturbation, fornication, marriage, or even lust?).The one who is the major cause of sexual deviance and sexually transmitted diseases.
This could be a malformed expression. I think if the people who said this were pressed to explain, they would probably accept that everyone must achieve a comfort with their sinfulness. Those who pursue Christianity for this purpose will usually find comfort in being forgiven. Usually that comes with conditions, for example repenting and turning away from the sin. Some people find comfort instead by adjusting their definition of sin. These approaches are not mutually exlusive, eg some atheists have said to effect that if there is a god to judge them, then that god should understand that they did their best. They are expecting some forgiveness and that gives them the necessary comfort. Some Christians for example, might say instead that two people sworn to each other even without formal mariage ceremony but all intentions, are not fornicators. They are adjusting the definition of sin, and that gives them the necessary comfort. For a Christian to observe that an atheist shifts their definition of sin to achieve the necessary comfort, they might express this as thinking that the atheist likes to sin more. But really, humans just all suffer some desire to sin that makes them uncomfortable sometimes, and we all need to find ways to cope with it.The ones who just want to sin more.
You seem to be speaking to me as though I am someone else. Thanks, I will get hold of that movie.These don't refer to actual atheists, but hypothetical atheists, like we see in "God's not dead" to convince Christians that atheists are horrible, wicked people that you should hate. And as a result you do. Not because you know anything about us, our experience, or our point of view, but because modern Christianity teaches that you know everything "because I said so."
Why?You are a Christian, you do not have any view of the atheist perspective at any time. You have a strawman.
Not true, I know a handful of real life atheists. I think you are one, but I doubt that sometimes.Exactly. Why would you? You have been fed a narrative designed to remind you how much you hate atheists. You only know the strawman atheist.
Ok, generally and by defintion, an atheist will rather decide that God is most likely not true whereas I have always chosen to believe that God most likely is true. Atheist's claim all sorts of things that are true, and like any finite/limited human, are prone to making claims that aren't true. What is the purpose of this test?Let's put it to a test: From the atheist perspective, what do we believe to be true that you do not? What claim do we make that could be true at all?
Why do you believe this? Please explain.No, it very clearly hasn't.
Not intended for that purpose. What I intended was to show you that because of someone being offended that you don't like what they like (ie, Christians who are offended that you don't find the value that they find in their doctrines), then they become abusive. This was relevant to me last week, because I have found that very same thing, though it was not wild, reckless living, it was that I chose not to pursue their interests in wealth. This was a statement that St Paul wrote to Timothy, in the New Testament. As such, Timothy's circumstances appear that he had decided to not join his friends in wild, reckless living, and as a result, those friends had turned on him, speaking about him abusively. I mustadmit, I don't know the full story surrounding this, but St Paul's observation appeared to contain some useful truth, relevant to me, on my mind at the time, and what I thought could be useful for you to consider too. The quote by Jesus was to remind you of the point of view that the Christians would have when you disrespect their values. Then I asked you whether you think you can see a pattern, of abuse being a response to being offended. It would be nice to know that you have seen what I meant, please give it some fair thought.What is this? Is this a Christian telling other Christians that non-Christians are reckless, wild living people who hate you, and this is taken as proof that Christians are getting the same treatment as us? Is this supposed to convince me that Christians don't hate us? This is the very narrative I'm talking about.
Yes, I pity you. I have never seen anything like it. I have though been promptly excluded from a job opportunity for saying that I enjoy discussing Christianity online. I don't know how I would handle your circumstances. I make no judgement. I have seen that there is quite often disadvantage for being honest. In fact, that is a well known principle of survival in this world.I would like to be open about the fact that I do not believe in a God, but I can't. I have to lie, all the time. Why? I might get attacked again. I might see my career stall. I have no I idea how my son will be treated as a result. All because of the hatred inside Christianity.
So I have sent some examples to you in a PM, and for those watching, I will just say that I gave some specific examples of behaviours that are justified by belief, but those beliefs cause people to act irrationally. I have withdrawn this statement since it singles out a specific group of people to which I don't identify, and then goes to describe that I think they are wrong. Then later I was shown that I would be inviting judgement with the same measure, so it's better to just avoid pointing to specific people, because really everyone can be pointed at for something.You may have to define attitude for me then, as these statements say that nothing is more important than belief.
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