Christians and guns

Avniel · Mar 22, 2015

TheDag said:
Show me where the bible says we should go to the toilet? What it doesn't! Guess we better just hold it in. Guess all the disciples were sinful as well as countless others. Care to actually explain the various passages you claimed to have looked at and how they don't apply

Those are two different things stating. I hate when people do that and it really annoys me they use a typical response in a situation that doesn't apply at all. There is a difference in saying the bible doesn't say go to the bathroom so we shouldn't go to the bathroom vs. the bible is not anti-violent and you will not find any scriptures rebuking self defense. That entire you don't find X, Y, Z don't apply to that when there are clear scriptures where God encourages violence and even protects His people as they engage in violence.

What passages have I overlooked, what I overlook is cultural church built on religious tradition. I overlook no scripture, what I am saying is you have been told that God is anti violence and you have made scriptures to mean something that they do not.

TheDag · Mar 23, 2015

Avniel said:
Those are two different things stating. I hate when people do that and it really annoys me they use a typical response in a situation that doesn't apply at all. There is a difference in saying the bible doesn't say go to the bathroom so we shouldn't go to the bathroom vs. the bible is not anti-violent and you will not find any scriptures rebuking self defense. That entire you don't find X, Y, Z don't apply to that when there are clear scriptures where God encourages violence and even protects His people as they engage in violence.

What passages have I overlooked, what I overlook is cultural church built on religious tradition. I overlook no scripture, what I am saying is you have been told that God is anti violence and you have made scriptures to mean something that they do not.

If you do not overlook scripture then do as I have asked. Mention the scriptures and explain why they do not apply or what they apply to. You keep claiming you have reserached this yet you don't mention any of the relevant passages. The only passage mentioned is one which is typically twisted to justify a persons view. That passage is Luke 22 that always gets twisted. I say that because if read as people claim it means then all the disciples were clearly wrong and should not be listened to. That is the only conclusion one can draw if using that passage to justify self defense.

Avniel · Mar 24, 2015

TheDag said:
If you do not overlook scripture then do as I have asked. Mention the scriptures and explain why they do not apply or what they apply to. You keep claiming you have reserached this yet you don't mention any of the relevant passages. The only passage mentioned is one which is typically twisted to justify a persons view. That passage is Luke 22 that always gets twisted. I say that because if read as people claim it means then all the disciples were clearly wrong and should not be listened to. That is the only conclusion one can draw if using that passage to justify self defense.

There are several reasons why I have not mention any scriptures one is because your approach is very aggressive and not needed as a christian I think we should be way more loving than that.

Which scriptures am I looking over? Please list the scriptures that I am looking over.

I find it interesting you ask for scriptures yet you accuse me overlooking scriptures and you don't even post them for me to defend.

However I am not going to be petty let me list a few typical scriptures used.

But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Right cheek vs someone trying to kill you are very different. There is no way someone can compare someone slapping you in the face with someone repeatedly punching in the face or threatening you with a weapon. This scripture is in no way anti violent, it's a scripture that is telling you to walk away not allow someone to kill you. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo where in this scripture does it say self defense is a sin, no where in this scripture does it say allow someone to kill you. That's cultural, that's religion that's not God.

Cernunnos · Mar 24, 2015

Today, my wife and I spent quality time together, firing pistols in .22LR, 9x18, .40 S&W, and .45LC. It was good to have some, "us" time on our range. We are both Christians. Christians and guns are good together, I like Jews and gays with guns too, nobody should have to be a victim of violent crime because of their race, religion, gender (identity) or disability, guns make it so right can stay right & not be might makes right.

TheDag · Mar 25, 2015

Avniel said:
There are several reasons why I have not mention any scriptures one is because your approach is very aggressive and not needed as a christian I think we should be way more loving than that.

Which scriptures am I looking over? Please list the scriptures that I am looking over.

I find it interesting you ask for scriptures yet you accuse me overlooking scriptures and you don't even post them for me to defend.

The reason I ask you to post scriptures is you claimed to have looked at scriptures. I simply wanted to know that you have done that.

Avniel said:
However I am not going to be petty let me list a few typical scriptures used.

You have a problem with the way you imagine I meant things yet you post this? On reflection would you say this comment was inspired by a christian attitude?

Avniel said:
But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Right cheek vs someone trying to kill you are very different. There is no way someone can compare someone slapping you in the face with someone repeatedly punching in the face or threatening you with a weapon. This scripture is in no way anti violent, it's a scripture that is telling you to walk away not allow someone to kill you. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo where in this scripture does it say self defense is a sin, no where in this scripture does it say allow someone to kill you. That's cultural, that's religion that's not God.

See you are using this as justification for self defence. This passage does not justify self defence.
You also make the false assumption that self defence always means a life threatening situation.
What this passage does say is don't retaliate. Allow yourself to be wronged. Indeed walk away. That is not the same as self defence

Hammster · Mar 26, 2015

MOD HAT ON

The thread has been cleaned up and moved from Christian Advice.

MOD HAT OFF

Gunny · Mar 26, 2015

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends".

John 15:13
NIV

In the context of combat; a Christian who serves in the military understands the practical application and reality of the very real possibility of laying one's life down for one's friend.

As a Christian, the very last thing I would want to do; if an individual invaded my family's home (making a very bad decision) is to utilize deadly force to deal with a grave situation at hand.

znr · Apr 4, 2015

Obviously trolling.

Cernunnos said:
Today, my wife and I spent quality time together, firing pistols in .22LR, 9x18, .40 S&W, and .45LC. It was good to have some, "us" time on our range. We are both Christians. Christians and guns are good together, I like Jews and gays with guns too, nobody should have to be a victim of violent crime because of their race, religion, gender (identity) or disability, guns make it so right can stay right & not be might makes right.

Avniel · May 10, 2015

TheDag said:
The reason I ask you to post scriptures is you claimed to have looked at scriptures. I simply wanted to know that you have done that.

You have a problem with the way you imagine I meant things yet you post this? On reflection would you say this comment was inspired by a christian attitude?

See you are using this as justification for self defence. This passage does not justify self defence.
You also make the false assumption that self defence always means a life threatening situation.
What this passage does say is don't retaliate. Allow yourself to be wronged. Indeed walk away. That is not the same as self defence

Self defense and not retaliating are two different things. When you're defending yourself it's not a choice when you retaliate it is.

South Bound · May 10, 2015

bottledwater said:
I read here, that some of the people making comments, are quoting scriptures to do with the law. We do not live under the law. We live under grace.
Instead of asking us, a group of sinners just like yourself for an answer that will be just as carnal as your own. Why not ask yourself, (WWJD). What would Jesus do? Can you see Jesus reaching for a gun and defending His belongings, or Himself? I certainly cannot. Aren't christians, those of us that have taken up our cross to follow Him?
Let me ask you this. Are your belongings worth more than another man's life? No matter how wicked the man is, we know that the man is worth more than "stuff".
Now what about a life for a life? What would be the benefit of taking a life in order to save your own? Where is the glory in that? Are you not going to be with the Lord upon departure from this life? Is that not the goal? What about the other man? Would it not be better for you to go and be with the Lord. Than for him to spend eternity separated from our Heavenly Father? It may just be this sin of taking another life, that brings this man to a state of humilty. Where the Lord can show him mercy, and ultimately save him by grace. Wont this bring the most glory to God? We are all the same. Sinners, just like this man. That is why we need to ask, " WWJD" ...................?

The problem with asking "WWJD" is that it's subjective and allows one to impose their own beliefs or will on Jesus, as you've just done here.

Rather than ask what Jesus might do, the question should be, what does the Word of God say?

Anytime one of these threads comes up, some people like to act all noble and say, "Oh, I would gladly sacrifice my life so that one day, the killer might be saved". Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

What they never want to explain is why they think it's noble to refuse to protect their family or other innocent people in their house.

I have no problem at all saying that if somebody breaks into my house and I think for a second that he poses a threat to my family, my dogs, or me, he'd better be able to run faster than 1500 feet per second.

What's more, as a Reformed believer, I have no such illusions about sacrificing myself so that the killer might be saved later, because I understand God's sovereignty and understand that God ordains the day of every man's death, including the unregenerate.

If a unregenerate man is killed breaking into a home, it's only because that's the day God has decided he should die. God takes the unsaved every day.

It's tragic, and I would much prefer that it not happen, but better him than me or my family.

2ndCovanent · May 10, 2015

All things are permissible but not all are good.

What good is it to have a hoard of guns when fellow christians around the world are dying? Why be selfish and tote your gun collection when the world is what it is? In this case, hoarding guns would probably be a sin.

Aldebaran · May 10, 2015

2ndCovanent said:
All things are permissible but not all are good.

What good is it to have a hoard of guns when fellow christians around the world are dying? Why be selfish and tote your gun collection when the world is what it is? In this case, hoarding guns would probably be a sin.

What's the alternative?
Some people feel guilty about eating because there are children in Africa that are starving. I don't think going hungry ourselves helps to feed children who are starving anymore than not "hoarding" guns will keep Christians around the world from dying.
The real question to ask is "Why are people dying"? Then address the situation from there. If Christians are dying because ISIS is hunting them down, then they need defending. If children are starving, the question is "Why don't they have food?" Is there a place where food can be delivered from? Could it be grown? Can the children be moved to where there is food?

See the problem, identify the cause, work out a solution.

2ndCovanent · May 10, 2015

Aldebaran said:
What's the alternative?
Some people feel guilty about eating because there are children in Africa that are starving. I don't think going hungry ourselves helps to feed children who are starving anymore than not "hoarding" guns will keep Christians around the world from dying.
The real question to ask is "Why are people dying"? Then address the situation from there. If Christians are dying because ISIS is hunting them down, then they need defending. If children are starving, the question is "Why don't they have food?" Is there a place where food can be delivered from? Could it be grown? Can the children be moved to where there is food?

See the problem, identify the cause, work out a solution.

This is the plan but it would be easier if more people would participate.

Hoarding guns isn't a good step towards solving anything. I don't even think that as christians our mission is to solve those things but rather suffer with those who have to suffer and help those who we can. You should be able to clearly see how buying guns for your enjoyment does not edify anyone except yourself. So really, the only thing I wish, is for everyone to acknowledge that it doesn't make us look like we care when we don't suffer with our brethren like hebrews 13:1-3 says. Such a small part of the bible yet it has such a major implication on how we are to live our lives. Jesus' words for those who want to be his disciples is that we are to deny ourselves. Jesus' advice to a rich man who was merry with all the people was to sell all of his stuff and distribute it so that he could become perfect.

Hammster · May 10, 2015

Can someone define "hoarding guns"?

2ndCovanent · May 10, 2015

Hammster said:
Can someone define "hoarding guns"?

Gun collection. Since I've already started taking steps at closing off my hobbies since they were always focused on my self I feel like other people need to think about this as well. I don't see how this is the wrong thing to do so why isn't anyone else doing it?

Hammster · May 10, 2015

2ndCovanent said:
Gun collection. Since I've already started taking steps at closing off my hobbies since they were always focused on my self I feel like other people need to think about this as well. I don't see how this is the wrong thing to do so why isn't anyone else doing it?

How much of a gun collection is hoarding?

2ndCovanent · May 10, 2015

Hammster said:
How much of a gun collection is hoarding?

If I was homless and had 3 guns that would be hoarding. If I was super rich and went to church every sunday and never really cared about anyone other than my Ford 450 superduty then I would need about 10. But you tell me why based on my line of thinking why the number even matters.

Hammster · May 10, 2015

2ndCovanent said:
If I was homless and had 3 guns that would be hoarding. If I was super rich and went to church every sunday and never really cared about anyone other than my Ford 450 superduty then I would need about 10. But you tell me why based on my line of thinking why the number even matters.

Because hoarding implies too many. So I was wondering how to biblically determine an amount.

Naboo · May 11, 2015

I would interpret 'hoarding guns' as collecting them to the point where it was a little obsessive and unreasonable and not really needed.

TheDag · May 11, 2015

Avniel said:
Self defense and not retaliating are two different things. When you're defending yourself it's not a choice when you retaliate it is.

So thats a great big no to having scripture to support your views then. Got it!

The only passage I've seen mentioned so far ignores the overwhelming majority of scholars and also requires a lot of additional explanations simply not found in scripture to get to that understanding. The accepted explanation for the passage where Jesus says get a sword is that it is warning of persecution that is to come.

Or you could just admit that you haven't really researched this as well as you claimed.

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