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Christianity and Judging

Beanieboy

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As a Buddhist, I find it odd to see Christians often claiming that there are actually called to judge.

Case in point: Bob Enyart, a self proclaimed Christian, but more like Rush Limbaugh than Jesus, in my opinion.
He has written, "Judge Not is not Some Guy's Name."
http://www.kgov.com/docs/JudgeRightly.html
Jesus commanded men to judge rightly and He told them to “judge not.”
His thesis is that Jesus command people to judge, but judge rightly. Christians are to make themselvces judges of what is right and wrong, or worse, other people.
He continues by quoting:
Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24)

What does the verse actually say?
24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.

That's different than insisting that people simply judge. It's emphasizing on how not to judge (on appearances.) To quote "Free Your Mind":
Just because I wear tight close
And high heeled shoes
Don't mean that I'm
A prostitute.

People are often judged by their cover, rather than their character. Often, people judge groups of people that they haven't even met.

He praised a man who “rightly judged” (Luke 7:43).

Now, this is what he is quoting:
Luke 7
36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."

40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.

41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"

43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

He praise Simon for judging rightly - but he was judging himself. He wasn't being praised for judging the prostitute. He judged that the prostitute loved Jesus more than the Phrarisee, who taught the law. That's a very humbling thing to have to admit to the God you profess to worship, and whose people you lead.

Does it then make sense to suggest that Jesus is encouraging Christians to judge others? Or is it encouraging us to not judge the hearts of others of whom we cannot see nor know?

Secondly, after someone says, "Judge Not", another will try to defend their right to judge, by saying, "the very next verse says that by the standard we judge, so shall we be judged." A person once told me that if he didn't do X, then he could condemn and judge me for it.

One has to ask, to what end? To make yourself feel better than others? To exhalt yourself? The bible speaks of that as well:

Luke 18
9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

In the story, the Pharisee wasn't cheating people out of money by being a tax collector, and yet he was not justified before God.
He wasn't "praised" for judging the tax collector, because he condemned him, not to edify the man, but to exhault himself. In exhalting himself, he makes himself not thankful of God's mercy, but thinking that he is above needing. He is God himself, not needing forgiveness, while other people are.

The person argued that they are only judged by the measure they judge. Therefore, they think homosexuality is wrong, and as long as they are not homosexual, that's ok for them to judge me.

I interpret the passage (in light of The Pharisee and the Tax Collector) that you are judged the way you judge others. The poster didn't know me, had only read my posts, but decided that because of homosexuality I was going to hell. (He seemed to think that being Buddhist was secondary.)

If the bible is true, then he will also be judged without mercy, without humility, and unjustly, without even examining his life. He will be judged on one sin.

Another poster claimed that he was sinless (because once you are forgiven, you are no longer held to the Law, and you never have to ask for forgiveness again.) This seems to fly in the face of "forgive us this day our sins", but apparently, he has risen above it. He then felt that because he was sinless, that he could rightly judge, because even those that commit the same acts as him are not equal - he isn't held by the Law. (Imagine explaining that on Judgement Day - "Yeah, I didn't think I was held to the Law, and so I didn't think that willfully disobeying was really a sin. Oops.)

Lastly, another poster argued that one is called to judge, becasue you are supposed to take the mote/dust out of someone's eye.

The verse: Mathew 7

1"(A)Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and (B)by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you (C)look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

4"(D)Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?

5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

A beam is a 2 x 4
A speck is like sawdust.

It is not, as the poster claimed, asking that people don't do what they judge in others.
It is saying that one should spend lest time worrying about the petty sins of their neighbor, and worrying about the gross sins of themselves, bringing us back to Simon's problem - he didn't love God very much, although he claimed to serve him. In the meantime, he focused on the prostitute, and in ignoring the log in his eye, probably spent more time poking people's eyes out when trying to remove the speck he saw as a huge problem.

Why is it that this brand of Christianity is so insistent on lifting themselves up above others by putting others down? Why is there such a self justification to judge others, when this is clearly unbiblical, and against what Christ taught? Is it right to be spending so much time focusing on the sins of others? Is that truly what Christ called Christians to do?

It's strange to hear someone sing, "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me...", then step outside the church, and call someone a wretch, and think themselves better than. It's strange to hear people talk about how one cannot earn their way into heaven, then pat themselves on the back, saying, 'Well, I'm going to heaven, and you're not!", as is they, well, earned their way into heaven.

Is it morally right to teach such twisted interpretations of the bible? Is is right to exhalt yourself by focusing on the sins of others? What do you think God feels about Enyart's article?
 

keith99

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I guess I'll add one. Some day I simply have to memorize this verse, but here it is off the top of my head.

On that day they will say to God, did we not perform great wonders and caset out demons in your name and I will say to them depart from Me, I never knew you.
 
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Verv

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There are different ways to act in this question of judging:

One is to point out that what is wrong and encourage people to avoid it. Christ commanded us to be lights to the world, so to speak, and to be shining examples and to spread our good news. In this sense it is best to tell people the message of Christ that it is not OK to be lustful, greedy, wrathful, gluttonous, prideful, slothful or envious, and that we should seek to free ourselves from the worldly.

In a way we are not judging but rather teaching; in our teaching, we speak of a path that is sanctioned by God and that are the profound teaching of Jesus Christ. It becomes a judgment in the sense that all Christians must see where they stand on all of these and proceed, and in that sense, non-Christians feel they are being judged when they hear our lessons.

The second way to judge is of course through condemning others, but that is solely up to God. We have no power to condemn. If we are condemning, then we will be condemned for the smallest of sins that we did.

God tells us only to forgive others. Remember this one?

"Forgive us our sins,
as we forgive those who sin against us."


Our only role on this Earth when it comes to sin is to forgive those who sin and encourage them to ask God for forgiveness.

In the end, it is our personal relationship with God that is examined. If Bob condemns me, Bob is trying to be God.

Christians should always strive for the First 'form of judgment,' so to speak, though it is not a form of judgment in only the misconceived sense.

We need to turn the naturally human and judgmental nature into The Nature Of Forgiveness.

It seems to me that someone who is not interested in judgement wouldn´t get anything out of Christianity in the first place - a theology that circles aroundthe idea of judgement (even though alleged divine judgement).

Christianity focuses on the crucifixion of yourself next to Jesus Christ through asceticism and repentance.

We recognize our errors and our imperfections as humans and wage an internal war against our impurity.

If you are a Christian beause you think you are righteous judge, you have forgotten everything about Christianity. You need to re-assess your spiritual life.

I have found that those Christians who gleefully judge others protest very loudly when they, themselves are judged


Well then, we cannot judge those people either, can we? They are doing something spiritually wrong and trying to play the role of God which is wrong.

Just remind them of the Lord's prayer, of forgiving others so that we can be forgiven.

:thumbsup:
 
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Soul Searcher

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It seems strange to me that christians can judge as you have stated and I consider myself christian.

But by the judgement of some I am a heretic..Go figure. *shrugs*

I agree with your post Beanie.

Same goes for me
 
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quatona

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Christianity focuses on the crucifixion of yourself next to Jesus Christ through asceticism and repentance.
And repentance requires previous judgement.

We recognize our errors and our imperfections as humans and wage an internal war against our impurity.
Sounds like a number of judgements to me.

If you are a Christian beause you think you are righteous judge, you have forgotten everything about Christianity. You need to re-assess your spiritual life.
I must admit I am tempted to quote some things about certain groups of people you said in previous discussions, but your "spiritual life" is none of my business.




Well then, we cannot judge those people either, can we? They are doing something spiritually wrong
Those two sentences in direct sequence are somewhat funny.

Just remind them of the Lord's prayer, of forgiving others so that we can be forgiven.
Last time I checked forgiveness required previous judgement.
 
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Verv

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And repentance requires previous judgement.

Sounds like a number of judgements to me.

I must admit I am tempted to quote some things about certain groups of people you said in previous discussions, but your "spiritual life" is none of my business.




Those two sentences in direct sequence are somewhat funny.

Last time I checked forgiveness required previous judgement.

I think you are part right but only in a liberal use of the word judgment, as in the same sense that we require an evaluation. A weak word of judgment. Semantics is killing us here.

I think my argument can be summed up in a sort of... "Evaluation without condemnation." We evaluate and we try to progress beyond where we are. Do you know what I mean?

Homosexuality is wrong for reasons we have discussed before. It is disgusting in the eyes of God -- just as wrathful behavior or people who live out of envy. I will stand by all of my statements, just do not forget that we love our neighbors and feel love for all of mankind.

Homosexuals are sinners. I am also a sinner, so we have something in common by virtue of our humanity.

What we must do after we come to the conclusion (or 'judgment' in the liberal sense of the word) is work towards improving ourselves and reconciling our sins with God (and ourselves).

Do you see what I am saying?
 
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quatona

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I think you are part right but only in a liberal use of the word judgment, as in the same sense that we require an evaluation. A weak word of judgment. Semantics is killing us here.

I think my argument can be summed up in a sort of... "Evaluation without condemnation." We evaluate and we try to progress beyond where we are. Do you know what I mean?

Homosexuality is wrong for reasons we have discussed before. It is disgusting in the eyes of God -- just as wrathful behavior or people who live out of envy. I will stand by all of my statements, just do not forget that we love our neighbors and feel love for all of mankind.

Homosexuals are sinners. I am also a sinner, so we have something in common by virtue of our humanity.

What we must do after we come to the conclusion (or 'judgment' in the liberal sense of the word) is work towards improving ourselves and reconciling our sins with God (and ourselves).

Do you see what I am saying?
Yes, it is exactly what I meant to describe with my initial post:
The entire thing is based on a categorical judgement of our entire species, projected on an allegedly existing god.

"It is disgusting in the eyes of God" is not judgement in the liberal sense of the word. For a person who believes in this god it is the worst judgement possible. Projecting your judgement on a god is the attempt to judge and dissociate yourself from your judgement at the same time.

On another note, if it were all about one´s own improvement, I guess I would see you and other Christians focussing on telling us about their own sins and your attempts to overcome them. For some strange reason the reality of your posts and the majority of the posts in general is that they talk about the "sins" of others first, and preferably about those "sins" that you aren´t even tempted by.
E.g.:Are you homosexual? If not, what is your point in even bringing it up in your attempt to improve yourself?
Have you ever been in the situation where you had to consider whether to abort or not? Why don´t you tell us about your personal struggles with it, then?
What is the point of self-improvement in talking about the "sinfulness" of offering sexual services that others provide?

I find it odd, that the self-improvement of you guys (at least when it comes to that which you communicate verbally) mainly consists of ideas how others could improve themselves.
 
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Yusuf Evans

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We all know that for ever action, there is a reaction; that's not just religion, but science as well. If someone judges you, they should make sure that they are judgement free themselves. Jesus said he best when he told the Pharisess "to cast the first stone".
 
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Verv

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Yes, it is exactly what I meant to describe with my initial post:
The entire thing is based on a categorical judgement of our entire species, projected on an allegedly existing god.

"It is disgusting in the eyes of God" is not judgement in the liberal sense of the word. For a person who believes in this god it is the worst judgement possible. Projecting your judgement on a god is the attempt to judge and dissociate yourself from your judgement at the same time.

On another note, if it were all about one´s own improvement, I guess I would see you and other Christians focussing on telling us about their own sins and your attempts to overcome them. For some strange reason the reality of your posts and the majority of the posts in general is that they talk about the "sins" of others first, and preferably about those "sins" that you aren´t even tempted by.
E.g.:Are you homosexual? If not, what is your point in even bringing it up in your attempt to improve yourself?
Have you ever been in the situation where you had to consider whether to abort or not? Why don´t you tell us about your personal struggles with it, then?
What is the point of self-improvement in talking about the "sinfulness" of offering sexual services that others provide?

I find it odd, that the self-improvement of you guys (at least when it comes to that which you communicate verbally) mainly consists of ideas how others could improve themselves.

First: there is a certain observation about humans that is easy to make: we are generally self serving. Even our friendliness can often be used towards manipulation of others. Many people just do certain things to make their own lives smoother and do not think of others.

If you want real examples of human evil think of WWII. If you want real examples of how we have naturally self-centered and rather sinful mindsets just look at how cruel children can be to one another; they have to be taught ideas like sharing. Everything about us reeks of imperfection.

It is not a hard call to make.

Next...

I have never had homosexual urges. Honestly, I can tell you, it has not happened.

One of the reasons why we discuss it so much here is because it is just a topic that seems to always be around.

Another thing...

I will discuss my sins with you.

I still commit the sin of gluttony, the sin of envy, the sin of wrath and the sin of lust.

Quotana, I will bring these up and talk about them and what they mean to me. I have decided what you said is right: I should discuss my own sins and what I have done very wrong so that others can learn from them. You make a good point.

I am not too proud to admit my wrong doings.

I will start talkig about them in all of the applicable threads and I think when I feel inspired I will make a separate thread about my sins.
 
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Meshavrischika

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I think that it depends on what you view as judging.

Disliking someones actions is just fine. 100% of the time.
You can tell them, but then this is where the speck/plank thing comes in. Hypocracy is not appreciated.
I guess the think that I hold as Christian is being able to not like the action of a person, but not judge the person as "bad" because of the action. I think that's the major line... not identifying something as bad, but condemning for it.
 
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cantata

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I guess the think that I hold as Christian is being able to not like the action of a person, but not judge the person as "bad" because of the action.

Yes, this is important to me too.

I don't believe anyone is all bad.
 
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quatona

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First: there is a certain observation about humans that is easy to make: we are generally self serving.


This is one part of the story.

Even our friendliness can often be used towards manipulation of others. Many people just do certain things to make their own lives smoother and do not think of others.
I´d suggest you speak for yourself.

If you want real examples of human evil think of WWII. If you want real examples of how we have naturally self-centered and rather sinful mindsets just look at how cruel children can be to one another; they have to be taught ideas like sharing. Everything about us reeks of imperfection.
All judgement calls. I´m not going to discuss the accuracy of your judgement calls because that wasn´t the topic of my post. My post merely stated that judgement calls are one of the foundations for the Christian doctrine, and - despite your efforts to deny this - you confirm it with about every sentence you write - and these aren´t judgement calls "in the liberal sense of the word".


It is not a hard call to make.
I didn´t say anything about your judgements being hard or easy to make - I said they were judgement calls, and everyone who isn´t interested in making judgement calls is likely to be unimpressed by the Christian doctrine.


I have never had homosexual urges. Honestly, I can tell you, it has not happened.
No problem, I didn´t mean to imply it. My argument was actually based on the very assumption that you were not homosexual.

One of the reasons why we discuss it so much here is because it is just a topic that seems to always be around.
No, it´s the other way round. It is always around because you are discussing it so much.

Another thing...

I will discuss my sins with you.
I am not interested in discussing your "sins" with you. I´m not interested in discussing anyone´s "sin".
The whole thing about discussing the "sins" of others was merely part of my argument why I have a hard time believing it´s all about improving oneself, and not about judgement.

I still commit the sin of gluttony, the sin of envy, the sin of wrath and the sin of lust.

Quotana, I will bring these up and talk about them and what they mean to me. I have decided what you said is right: I should discuss my own sins and what I have done very wrong so that others can learn from them.

I am not too proud to admit my wrong doings.

I will start talkig about them in all of the applicable threads and I think when I feel inspired I will make a separate thread about my sins.
I think that a change in that direction will help your credibility. :thumbsup:
 
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Beanieboy

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Which type of buddhism are your practicing?

Zen, mostly. It calls to spend more time examining yourself, than examining others.

I was talking to another friend who has been practicing far longer than I have. He said that he found Buddhism far more challenging than his Catholic Practice, and I have to agree. One is to have (in this order), pure thoughts, pure words, and pure action. My Christian teaching usually taught that pure action was the thing to focus on, and then words, and then thoughts. However, thoughts seem to be the cause of the words, which are the cause of the actions.

By meditating on one's self, I think that it's easier to be in a purer state, so that should it be necessary, you can comment on another to edify them. However, it should never be a focus. If anything, you should be spending time practicing loving kindness on others, as opposed to demanding it from others.

That's why I'm so curious when I see a brand of Christianity, such as Enyarts, and the Enyartians (those who follow Enyart more than Christ) in thinking that they are called to judge others, righteously or not, on the surface or not. One poster even encouraged others to practice judging people now, because they will judge others on Judgement Day. The irony of that was kind of sad.
 
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Beanieboy

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"It is disgusting in the eyes of God" is not judgement in the liberal sense of the word. For a person who believes in this god it is the worst judgement possible. Projecting your judgement on a god is the attempt to judge and dissociate yourself from your judgement at the same time.

On another note, if it were all about one´s own improvement, I guess I would see you and other Christians focussing on telling us about their own sins and your attempts to overcome them. For some strange reason the reality of your posts and the majority of the posts in general is that they talk about the "sins" of others first, and preferably about those "sins" that you aren´t even tempted by.

Very sucinct.
It's the "I'm not judging you. God's judging you. Look here..."
But no, it is often the person judging.

Taking homosexuality as the example used, someone once said to me, "If homosexuals are in heaven, my mouth will drop." There is an implied "homosexuals don't deserve to be there, but I do." It's the same as the Pharisee thanking God for how holy he is, and thanking God that he's not like the tax collector. It's Simon, who thinks that Jesus can't possibly be the son of God, because otherwise, he wouldn't be even acknowledging the prostitute.

Makes you wonder if they know God at all.
 
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