Christianity and Hope

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Is Christianity supposed to be hopeful? I often hear people talking about all the hope we have in Christ and how without Christianity we are hopeless.

I find little hope in Christianity for two reasons:

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it. The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.


Is there hope in Christianity beyond selfish, eternal salvation? Or is it all about me?

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

 

[Hakan101]

Is Christianity supposed to be hopeful? I often hear people talking about all the hope we have in Christ and how without Christianity we are hopeless.

I find little hope in Christianity for two reasons:

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it. The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.


Is there hope in Christianity beyond selfish, eternal salvation? Or is it all about me?

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

1) It only looks like escapism if you don't have faith in Jesus to fulfill his promises. Because yes, the truth that is hard for many people to accept is that this world--to put it plainly--sucks, and it's going to suck until he returns to set everything right. Obviously there is some good to be found. And you can certainly make some kind of effort to temporarily improve conditions on earth. But the Bible makes it very clear this world is going to pass and be made new. When it comes to politics, the environment, social justice and the like...there can be no permanent or lasting changes. Mankind is still sinful and especially in these Last Days it's going to get worse. Jesus is looking for those who will hold on and keep faithing in Him until the final pages of history have been written. Those are the people whose faith is more precious than gold.

2) Yes there are plenty of complacent Christians who really don't make any effort to get the Word out there. They are only focused on themselves. I have been guilty of it too. But there are also those Christians who do reach out to the world and spread the Gospel. People can choose to respond to it or reject it. Pounding on their doors and pleading with them won't change their minds, that's something between them and God. We can just provide the message, it's up to them to accept it. There are some people who will accept Jesus, and there will be some who are completely against him or just don't care. Churches will be preaching the Good News until the end of time, so those non-Christians will have no excuse. You can only pray they wise up and see the wretched state they are in, and see the need for Jesus.

3) I don't really understand what you are saying here. I think you are saying the idea of a restored world with Jesus as King and no more suffering makes this world pointless? Well that's only true if your heart is wrapped up in this world. Jesus makes it very clear this world is just a road we are passing through, it's like a single dot on the neverending line of eternity.

Like this:
* -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The asterisk would be the entire lifespan of the universe, while the dotted line is eternal life. The line never ends.

You also say something about justice being pointless, and suicide and murder being valid options. I don't really get that. Jesus paid the price for all sinners so that those who faithe in him are saved by grace. Yes this means even the worst murderer, if he saw the light and the need for Jesus, would receive salvation. Just like our sins are forgiven, so is the murderer's sins forgiven. The price was paid for all sins.

Suicide is completely wrong, it's a slap in the face to Jesus. The only time you ever see a person kill themselves or want to kill themselves in the Bible it is being caused by an evil spirit and never by God. I don't know what happens to a person who commits suicide, I don't know where they go but it's very clear God does not condone it. Think of all the apostles who suffered horrific deaths. They faithed in Jesus until the very end, not once did they decide to kill themselves to be spared the pain. Paul said all the suffering in the world is not worth comparing to the glory of heaven.

I hope this helped you a bit. Faith makes things possible not easy. Jesus said if you follow him to expect persecution and hardship. But he will fulfill all his promises. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[oi_antz]

I am pretty certain the authentic Christian view is one that treats this world temporarily, and from the little I know of the insustainability of the universe, it seems most likely to have been designed with that intention (since I usually do assume design).

The stories Jesus gives about salvation are centred around the concept of farming and harvesting crops. I know a little bit about gardening, and I was thinking of this the other night as I was raking the ashes in the bonfire, it was a terrifying thought. I realised that in gardening, we don't value weeds, we pull them out and get rid of them. Weeds too, are any plant that is growing in a way we don't want. An undesirable plant. This is not necessarily about the abundance of the plant, but the function the plant is serving. Eg, my flatmate cut some branches off a tree that I had purposefully allowed to grow, because it provided privacy. In his view, the branches were blocking the path and it was a wild sown "weed" species. But it was useful to me. While saying this about how even an unintended plant can be useful to us, in the garden we also need to manage the numbers of a type of plant, because for instance, if we have 20 brocolli maturing then some of those plants are excess to our needs. We may need to give them away or discard them, and they have used space that we could have used for tomatoes instead. While I was thinking about all this and how I was raking the ashes of a tree I had regretfully destroyed because I was developing where it was living, I was filled with sorrow and remembering the enormous gift that life is, and what it is about me that would make God decide I am a useful life to keep.

Is Christianity supposed to be hopeful?

I think it is, yes. "For God so loved the world.. so [x] shall not perish but have everlasting life".

.. I don't see any purpose other than hope in this message.

I often hear people talking about all the hope we have in Christ and how without Christianity we are hopeless.

.. hmmm,

I find little hope in Christianity for two reasons:

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

I don't know whether there is a biblical reason for the idea that there will be no sin in the afterlife. What I do see, is that those who are harvested rather than discarded, are the ones who despise sin rather than embracing it. That would be sufficient for Jesus' promise "there will be no more death or sorrow or pain, because the former things have passed away". But, if the ability to sin either as a mistake or misjudgement does still exist, the only people who can do it are those who despise it and who are willing to repent.

Christianity at it's core is all about improving social and environmental conditions on earth, at all times, everywhere and for everyone. Do you remember the second greatest commandment according to Jesus?

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

I do believe what Christian theology teaches, but I also know the harm that can be done by trying to ram the truth down someone's throat. I am not good at controlling myself either. But what many Christians teach is not what I have observed the Christian message to be. Look at this: John 10:14-16, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 1 Corinthians 3:7.

.. so, what right do you suppose I have, to insist that someone comes around and accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior because I insist on it? If God desires that, He will bring them to make that decision, and if it is what they want, they will seek it.

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it.

I was not aware of this possibility, can you explain it to me a little bit?

The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.

Ah, not really a reason to lose hope, because John 3:18 says "All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

.. so, there is hope for those who are described in Matthew 13:30 as having matured and become fit for purpose, as citizens of heaven.

Is there hope in Christianity beyond selfish, eternal salvation? Or is it all about me?

Christianity is about selflessness. Remember the parable of heaven and hell and the long spoons.

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

This is a tough, really tough question. I am afraid of robotics and computers and the agenda which will view human over-population redundant. I cannot imagine much further than that time, since AI has not yet been unleashed, it is impossible to know whether a Transformers, Terminator or Matrix situation might eventuate. My fear shows me that it can be very likely, and when I see it that way, there is nothing that I can do as a Christian to stop it. Only God can do it, and only in apocalyptic style.

However, if the weeds were removed and the wheat only remained (eg, Jesus comes and brings New Jerusalem to earth), in 2500 we could have colonised several galaxies. I don't believe this is how it will happen though, I am only drawing a contrast between what the human can potentially achieve.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

How do you reconcile this:

I am pretty certain the authentic Christian view is one that treats this world temporarily, and from the little I know of the insustainability of the universe, it seems most likely to have been designed with that intention (since I usually do assume design).

With this:

Christianity at it's core is all about improving social and environmental conditions on earth, at all times, everywhere and for everyone. Do you remember the second greatest commandment according to Jesus?

If the world is just temporary, then why are we seeking to protect it? Shouldn't the primary goal be saving souls and converting as many people to Jesus as possible?

The second greatest commandment is "Love your neighbour".

Firstly, this has nothing to do with the environment. And secondly, if eternity is real, then the only true way to love your neighbour is by pleading with them wholeheartedly to convert. There is no point in feeding them or clothing them if this life is just a small dot on the line of eternity (as Hakan said).

The stories Jesus gives about salvation are centred around the concept of farming and harvesting crops. I know a little bit about gardening, and I was thinking of this the other night as I was raking the ashes in the bonfire, it was a terrifying thought. I realised that in gardening, we don't value weeds, we pull them out and get rid of them. Weeds too, are any plant that is growing in a way we don't want. An undesirable plant. This is not necessarily about the abundance of the plant, but the function the plant is serving. Eg, my flatmate cut some branches off a tree that I had purposefully allowed to grow, because it provided privacy. In his view, the branches were blocking the path and it was a wild sown "weed" species. But it was useful to me. While saying this about how even an unintended plant can be useful to us, in the garden we also need to manage the numbers of a type of plant, because for instance, if we have 20 brocolli maturing then some of those plants are excess to our needs. We may need to give them away or discard them, and they have used space that we could have used for tomatoes instead. While I was thinking about all this and how I was raking the ashes of a tree I had regretfully destroyed because I was developing where it was living, I was filled with sorrow and remembering the enormous gift that life is, and what it is about me that would make God decide I am a useful life to keep.

I'm not sure I understand your analogy. Is it not by free will that we choose to turn towards God and follow Jesus?

I think it is, yes. "For God so loved the world.. so [x] shall not perish but have everlasting life".

.. I don't see any purpose other than hope in this message.

Hope for who? You? Because you're a believer?

I don't know whether there is a biblical reason for the idea that there will be no sin in the afterlife. What I do see, is that those who are harvested rather than discarded, are the ones who despise sin rather than embracing it. That would be sufficient for Jesus' promise "there will be no more death or sorrow or pain, because the former things have passed away". But, if the ability to sin either as a mistake or misjudgement does still exist, the only people who can do it are those who despise it and who are willing to repent.

It still sounds like escapism: "Leave this world behind, we've got better places to be."

It reminds me of the person who is constantly longing for their next vacation escape while never actually nurturing and growing their "real life" routines and relationships at home.

I do believe what Christian theology teaches, but I also know the harm that can be done by trying to ram the truth down someone's throat.

But, if this world is temporary, and eternal glory is one possibility while eternal damnation is the other possibility, then by God you should really be frantically and desperately (DESPERATELY) converting everyone you know. It should be an act of desperation. An act of pure panic.

I am not good at controlling myself either. But what many Christians teach is not what I have observed the Christian message to be. Look at this: John 10:14-16, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, 1 Corinthians 3:7.

.. so, what right do you suppose I have, to insist that someone comes around and accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior because I insist on it? If God desires that, He will bring them to make that decision, and if it is what they want, they will seek it.

This appears to be a biblical contradiction. I thought one of the central tenets of Christianity is that it is by our free will that we come to know Christ Jesus?

If God chooses who does and does not come to him, then you are left with the perplexing notion that our eternal destiny is determined by God and not by us which leaves you with the troubling notion that God truly does "send people to hell" which seems wholly unjust.

I was not aware of this possibility, can you explain it to me a little bit?

In Revelation, there is the idea that a whole new Earth is created and the world is made anew. The final judgment. Some interpret this as ALL being restored to glory, even the sinners and even those in hell.

This, to me, is just universalism wrapped up in a Christian package. Universalism provides no sense of morality or justice because everyone receives the same outcome regardless of actions, beliefs, philosophy. It would mean that a Muslim who commits suicide after going on a murderous rampage is in the same standing as a Christian who lived a long 90-year life after helping thousands of people come to Christ. There's no distinction. Morality is useless.

Ah, not really a reason to lose hope, because John 3:18 says "All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

I think you are misinterpreting my view of hope. I'm not looking for personal hope "for my own sake". I'm concerned about the big picture as in the fact that it is hopeless for everyone to come to Christ. People are dying right now who have not come to Christ. It is hopeless.

Christianity is about selflessness. Remember the parable of heaven and hell and the long spoons.

You say this, but just because you say it does not make it so. Christianity appears, to me, to be ultimately about selfishness: concern with your own salvation.

This is a tough, really tough question. I am afraid of robotics and computers and the agenda which will view human over-population redundant. I cannot imagine much further than that time, since AI has not yet been unleashed, it is impossible to know whether a Transformers, Terminator or Matrix situation might eventuate. My fear shows me that it can be very likely, and when I see it that way, there is nothing that I can do as a Christian to stop it. Only God can do it, and only in apocalyptic style.

However, if the weeds were removed and the wheat only remained (eg, Jesus comes and brings New Jerusalem to earth), in 2500 we could have colonised several galaxies. I don't believe this is how it will happen though, I am only drawing a contrast between what the human can potentially achieve.

Why the fear?

 

[Hawkins]

Is Christianity supposed to be hopeful? I often hear people talking about all the hope we have in Christ and how without Christianity we are hopeless.

I find little hope in Christianity for two reasons:

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it. The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.


Is there hope in Christianity beyond selfish, eternal salvation? Or is it all about me?

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

What you said here may be based on a not so well informed idea.

Part of God's ultimate plan is to build an eternity called heaven where God and angels and humans can live happily forever.

The whole story is not about how eternal life is rewarded. It's all about what God should do for such an eternity to be built. God is doing what is necessary for the building of such an eternity. That is, the qualified will be brought to this eternity as planned with the unqualified filtered out.


Moreover, psychological need is not the main purpose of the existence of religions. Ultimately, religions are to answer a question concerning all humans. The question is, "Does afterlife exist?"

Genesis said, God hid the Tree of Life from the reach of humans that humans have no way to get to know what would happen after death. We have to put faith in believing what would happen one way or another.

Worse still, those who don't have a religion are actually having a religion without their own awareness. They actually believe that nothing would happen after death. This is their religion.

On the other hand, Christianity is the only religion formed by human witnessing with witnesses martyred themselves for the conveying of a claimed truth.

 

[oi_antz]

How do you reconcile this:

I am pretty certain the authentic Christian view is one that treats this world temporarily, and from the little I know of the insustainability of the universe, it seems most likely to have been designed with that intention (since I usually do assume design).

With this:

Christianity at it's core is all about improving social and environmental conditions on earth, at all times, everywhere and for everyone. Do you remember the second greatest commandment according to Jesus?

There is no reason to think that because I am here for only a lifetime, that the earth is only expected to sustain me. You are making an assumption that the fleeting nature of life is a reason not to preserve the environment for coming generations. I do not have that attitude, but rather the opposite. Can you explain why you have this idea? Have you seen Christians demonstrating this attitude?

If the world is just temporary, then why are we seeking to protect it? Shouldn't the primary goal be saving souls and converting as many people to Jesus as possible?

Everything about life that we enjoy is due to the hospitality of the environment. If we are to reduce the environment's hospitality when we know we are able to preserve it, then we are in fact causing others to suffer and doing so knowingly. We do see this happening, for example, with commercial fishing. The oceans can be managed sustainably, but it requires much more effort. The world is established to value profit over people.

The second greatest commandment is "Love your neighbour".

Firstly, this has nothing to do with the environment.

You can see, I think it does.

And secondly, if eternity is real, then the only true way to love your neighbour is by pleading with them wholeheartedly to convert. There is no point in feeding them or clothing them if this life is just a small dot on the line of eternity (as Hakan said).

Why does a person need to convert, and does conversion always result in less sin? Also, is there a risk of a person performing sin due to hunger or cold, which would not have occurred if these basic needs had been met?

I'm not sure I understand your analogy. Is it not by free will that we choose to turn towards God and follow Jesus?

I was not making an analogy, but was sharing some ideas that occurred to me the other night. These are thoughts about why God would value some and not others. It seems too, that we probably do not view free will wrt faith in the same way, but I will agree that we all have some control over any decision we make wrt turning to God, and wrt following Jesus.

Hope for who? You? Because you're a believer?

It is meant to be hope for everyone who desires to not perish but to have everlasting life. If someone feels excluded from that hope, can you explain why they feel excluded?

It still sounds like escapism: "Leave this world behind, we've got better places to be."

It reminds me of the person who is constantly longing for their next vacation escape while never actually nurturing and growing their "real life" routines and relationships at home.

Did you choose the words "next vacation" instead of "first vacation"?

But, if this world is temporary, and eternal glory is one possibility while eternal damnation is the other possibility, then by God you should really be frantically and desperately (DESPERATELY) converting everyone you know. It should be an act of desperation. An act of pure panic.

I am completely powerless in that. It is totally between a person and God. I know this from experience, and you can see it all around you. God can call us, and we can seek Him. There is no other way.

This appears to be a biblical contradiction. I thought one of the central tenets of Christianity is that it is by our free will that we come to know Christ Jesus?

I think it was better along the lines of "I stand at the door and knock. If someone hears me knocking and opens the door, I will come in and have a meal with them". Why do you think that the view I showed you here is contradicting the way God operates through Christ?

If God chooses who does and does not come to him, then you are left with the perplexing notion that our eternal destiny is determined by God and not by us which leaves you with the troubling notion that God truly does "send people to hell" which seems wholly unjust.

That is not what I have said. I have said more like "many are called, but few are chosen", and I have also suggested "to him who is given much, much is expected".

In Revelation, there is the idea that a whole new Earth is created and the world is made anew. The final judgment. Some interpret this as ALL being restored to glory, even the sinners and even those in hell.

Can you please provide the scripture that is sometimes read to mean this? I don't think I have ever seen Revelation that way. Thanks.

This, to me, is just universalism wrapped up in a Christian package. Universalism provides no sense of morality or justice because everyone receives the same outcome regardless of actions, beliefs, philosophy. It would mean that a Muslim who commits suicide after going on a murderous rampage is in the same standing as a Christian who lived a long 90-year life after helping thousands of people come to Christ. There's no distinction. Morality is useless.

Do you think one judgement for one person should be applied uniformly to all, or do you think that judgements should consider personal circumstance?

I think you are misinterpreting my view of hope. I'm not looking for personal hope "for my own sake". I'm concerned about the big picture as in the fact that it is hopeless for everyone to come to Christ. People are dying right now who have not come to Christ. It is hopeless.

I want to get at the root of your problem, and then we can see if it is justified. Why do you say it is a problem for people to die without first "coming to Christ"? Who do you think, according to Christianity, is the next person they will see when they die?

You say this, but just because you say it does not make it so. Christianity appears, to me, to be ultimately about selfishness: concern with your own salvation.

That is for anyone who assumes they have satisfied a criteria for salvation. I don't make that assumption, I only carry that hope.

Why the fear?

Look what they did to Jesus. He was loved by many, and did only good things. Why was He not valued by those who killed Him? Because He threatened their comfort. I think my fear is justified and reasonable, because of what I know of the ability for humans to kill humans like flies.

 

[Hakan101]

I want to address a couple of things you said in your second post, OP. First off, Christianity is not about self-preservation. Sure that's the starting point, because you realize the wretched sinner you are and why you need Jesus to have salvation and be reconciled to God. But then the entire rest of your life is to become a soldier for Christ, and fight the good fight to spread the Gospel. It's about selflessness, dedicating your life to get the message out to a starving world. Yes this world sucks, and I honestly I wish either Jesus would come already or I could just die now, but it's not up to me, it's up to Him. If He has not taken me now, that means I am more useful here on Earth at the moment, there are people who need the message and Christ is offering me a chance to participate in giving it to them. So I want to faithe in Him and keep doing what I can until He decides it's my time. That is the attitude Jesus wants us to have.

You said something about the commission to spread the Gospel being an act of pure panic, and that we should "be frantically converting everyone we know." Well we really can't "convert" anyone, we can only get the message out there and it's up to the Holy Spirit to draw them in, and even then that person has to choose to respond to the message. Also, it is definitely something to be passionate and fired up about, but I wouldn't say we should be desperate and in a panic. We have faith in Jesus to help us in our commission, after all it's His word we are trying to spread. We should trust in Him to send us where He wants us to be sent. As I said in my previous post, there are some people who just don't want Jesus. No point getting frantic over them. When Jesus knocks, some will open the door, some will walk away from it.

I don't really know if everybody not in Christ is eternally condemned or not. There is a certain part in Revelation, a reference to the Great White Throne judgment, and the fact there is a book of life at the throne. It says only those whose names are NOT written in the book are condemned to the lake of fire. But that entire judgement is for those who did not have salvation through Jesus. So to me, the fact there is even a book of life there at all suggests some of them possibly are spared, or maybe given a final chance. I really don't know, maybe Jesus doesn't want us focused on that right now. But I know there are definitely a certain portion of people who will be condemned for eternity. Otherwise Jesus didn't need to die at all, which means he died in vain.

 

[Mediaeval]

Universalism provides no sense of morality or justice because everyone receives the same outcome regardless of actions, beliefs, philosophy. It would mean that a Muslim who commits suicide after going on a murderous rampage is in the same standing as a Christian who lived a long 90-year life after helping thousands of people come to Christ. There's no distinction. Morality is useless.

An ultimate outcome that universalism necessitates is the victory of good over evil. We participate in this effort, beginning in this life, with beneficial consequences to the world around us. However, this does not mean that, to use your example, a Muslim murderer and a helpful Christian would escape the principle that a man reaps what he sows. God's forgiveness is not incompatible with punishment or making restitution.

 

[ForJesusChrist]

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

Why would this make someone less of an incentive to do go on earth? Jesus tells us to be kind to all and help all and love our enemies. Wouldn't you want more people to be saved?

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the
world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

Why is is hopeless for them to have eternal life? Not to judge, but just because someone says they are a Christian does not make them a Christian. You can't just talk the talk, you have to walk the walk.

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it. The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.

Why would that render everything pointless? Wouldn't you still want to do good?

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

Not sure.

 

[Sketcher]

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hope" then. Escapism involves activities you do to forget about the pain in your life - examples would be drugs, alcohol, sexual hookups, buying things, going to shows, trying new activities, and playing video games, to name a few. But you can't do too many of those things in a Roman prison cell, or in a hut when you have no money. When someone commits a crime against you simply because you are Christian, escapism isn't going to do a lot for you. But hope is accessible. Hope is the belief that your cancer will eventually get better or that you will get out of prison and see your family again - or that you will go to Heaven and it will all be over. Escapism simply distracts your mind for a while. With hope, you actually have to grit your teeth to hang onto it sometimes.

It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

The New Testament tells me the opposite, with sheer repetition of "love one another" being one example. Ephesians 2:10 also tells me that my purpose as a Christian is to do good works. So I can't agree with you there.

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

Lots of people don't want to hear it. Their loss.

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it. The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:12-15​

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8​

"And nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." - Revelation 21:27​

I'm not seeing univeralism, tolerance for evil deeds (let alone murder), any reason to throw away morality, or an encouragement for the extinction of the human race in any of this.

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

I'd like to see people treat each other better, and have more respect for marriage and the family. I'd like to see more Christians worldwide, and more peace and reason. I might not be on Earth in 2100, but what I can focus on is the life I have now, and the people who are in my life now.

 

[Ellwood3]

Is Christianity supposed to be hopeful? I often hear people talking about all the hope we have in Christ and how without Christianity we are hopeless.

I find little hope in Christianity for two reasons:

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it. The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.


Is there hope in Christianity beyond selfish, eternal salvation? Or is it all about me?

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

Consider changing your perspective, the lens you are looking at this through.

What if Christ did actually die on the cross for your sins, so you can have a relationship with God? What hope is in anything else, if that is true?



In honor of Christmas: The Star of Bethlehem: the facts about the star of Christ

 

[Steeno7]

Is Christianity supposed to be hopeful? I often hear people talking about all the hope we have in Christ and how without Christianity we are hopeless.

I find little hope in Christianity for two reasons:

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

Except that isn't Christianity. Christians don't escape this world, we are still very much in this world, just like any other. Our hope isn't in escaping this world, our hope, our confident expectation, is in Jesus who is with us right now, right smack dab in the middle of all of this sin and destruction.

My friend you need to do a little historical research and discover just how much Christianity has improved the social and environmental conditions here on earth.

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

How then do you explain the spread of Christianity all over the globe? Somebody must be doing some evangelizing, somebody must be doing some missionary work. Dont you think?

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it. The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.

We are called to be expressors of the love of Christ who dwells in us. Regardless of how you see the "final days", Christians love our neighbors, and love desires only the very highest good for others.

Is there hope in Christianity beyond selfish, eternal salvation? Or is it all about me?

It's all about Jesus, and He's all about us.

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

As you have said yourself the world is full of sin and destruction. I understand that it must continue as it is until all who will come, have come. As God is not desiring that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For myself, like most of our ancestors before us, I think of the children, the coming generations, and want to leave a better world for them, not a worse world. To quote a Sting song, "I hope the Russians love their children too". I hope they do also. I have to believe we all do. When we do no longer love our children, then I think the end will come, then I think the end should come.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Is Christianity supposed to be hopeful? I often hear people talking about all the hope we have in Christ and how without Christianity we are hopeless.

I find little hope in Christianity for two reasons:

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

2) It makes me look at all the billions upon billions of non-Christians in the world and think about how hopeless it is to have them all find eternal life. It should make every single Christian go out and pound on people's doors, pleading with them to make the switch. Instead, we see billions of Christians who rarely engage in evangelism and rarely even bring up religion in our secular society. Do they really believe what Christian theology teaches?

3) The other form of Christian "hope" is the final days as described in revelation. But here there are two ideas: one is that everyone is restored and the world is made new and perfect. If that is the case, then it seems to render everything we do pointless. It is simply a form of universalism where there is no justice and everyone receives perfection in the long run which renders morality pointless and suicide and murder valid options. It encourages extinction of the human race rather than preservation of it. The second idea is that some are restored in the final days and others are obliterated. If that's the case, then we simply run into the same problem as #2.


Is there hope in Christianity beyond selfish, eternal salvation? Or is it all about me?

What will the world look like in 2100 and what incentive do you, as a Christian, see in making the world a better place? What will the world look like in 2500? 3000 AD? Ten thousand years from now? What do you wish it to look like?

I don't see it like you do. In order of what you listed ---------

1. While its noble and proper to do what we can to better this world for subsequent generations....whats vitally more important is where YOU a creation of the most high infinite God will be spending all of eternity. Gods great plan of salvation is filled with hope from start to finish and IS the greatest example of his love toward you. So, you want to cherish that immensely .

1.a. The hope of eternity which by the way God has put in ALL of our hearts (Soul) is a very real fact and ideology. After a lifetime of joys, happiness , mixed in with plenty of sadness, pain, and regret....God tells those who trust in his SOn , Jesus, to just hold on a little longer because one day it wont even be worth remembering all the trials we went thru in this brief earthly life . Eternity is meant to be utter bliss as a permanent token of Gods love for us to be in his never ending presence. And whats really amazing is that its nothing we can work for, and is a free undeserved gift to us from a Creator who delights in his children. Without the hope God offers, this life becomes bleak and ultimately bleak on the deathbed when one ponders just what his life was all about anyways . With such a person, the deathbed offers what he always wanted while on earth : Being left alone by God because he can handle life all by himself. So, he is left alone with fear and anxiety and an emptiness resulting from putting SELF as #1 instead of Gods rightful place. Not even his family gathered at his bedside can offer much comfort at the final moments of such a persons wasted life.

2. Every Person on earth KNOWS and BELEIVES in God as personal theistic Creator because creation makes it too obvious . Romans 1:18-21 makes it clear that there are no born Atheists and no one is an Atheist in his life...only willful Rebels where God is concerned. God simply grants what they always wanted while on earth : GREAT distance for eternity , or, greater closeness to himself. People choose, and God grants. Complete fairness.

3. Then end of the ages as in Revelation, tell of a God who is as Just as he is Loving. He is merciful toward those who want his mercy but Just to those who don't desire it. There is coming a Day of Reckoning for all those who committed the greatest crime imaginable in shunning their very own Creator and whos sins MUST be accounted for . This is the Great white Throne Judgement which must occur if God is Just . The other form of judgement is for Beleivers who stand before Christ to see to what extent their God given Gifts, Talents, Treasures were used post-salvation ----- to determine the LEVEL of commitment toward Christ and how we chose to spend our Born Again life in him.


Its not a question of if there is hope BEYOND our salvation...but rather.....there is hope DUE TO OUR SALVATION and a life that is lived in a God empowered infusion afterward. What Christians can claim is a real Hope not based on wishful thinking...but on the very promises of the eternal God whos already proven his great love for us. Its all about CHRIST (living) IN ME THE HOPE OF GLORY and the hope we have as a guarantee due to the death and resurrection of Jesus who beat death and peeled back the covers of the afterlife so we can know what is ours as an undeserved inheritance.

I take great joy in that, and its what propels me on thru difficult times in this life which I know is temporary . One day, the temporary will give way to the never-ending and the Hope I have wont be based on faith anymore, but great reality.

 

[Hospes]

1) It seems like simply a form of escapism rather than hope. Our hope rests in an eternal life in which we each personally escape from this world of sin and destruction. This seems hopeless to me. It seems like when we die, we leave all the problems of the world behind. It seems to give little personal incentive to improve the social or environmental conditions here on Earth.

Two men are in a house on fire, both have hope. One man believes the fire is too large to contain and searches for a safe exit, hoping that outside the house he will be safe. The other man stays in the house trying to douse the flames with water, hoping that his little effort will somehow put out the fire. The difference between the two is not that one has hope and the other not, it is that one considers the fire out of control and the other does not.

Christians are called to steward the earth as a God-given treasure; they are not called to hope that through their efforts they will "save" it.

Is there hope in Christianity beyond selfish, eternal salvation?

You touch on a good point here. Christianity does encourage being self-centered, just not in the way most people expect.