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You are an Annihilationist then?
Do you believe that the vast majority are predestined to be incinerated?
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You are an Annihilationist then?The wicked will be destroyed. Hell is the grave ..... all sleep a dormant sleep there until Jesus returns then the 1st resurrection happens (of the saved) later the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) happens.
No such thing as a forever burning place.
I guess Jesus was a liar then.The wicked will be destroyed. Hell is the grave ..... all sleep a dormant sleep there until Jesus returns then the 1st resurrection happens (of the saved) later the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) happens.
No such thing as a forever burning place.
You are an Annihilationist then?
Do you believe that the vast majority are predestined to be incinerated?
But Scripture teaches we are all predestined to be saved. Therefore the only way to be lost is by using our God-given free choice to be lost, totally independent of God’s plan.
It is inferred, or concluded, in the fact that some were the Elect, predestined for salvation. What becomes of the rest? Those who weren't the Elect, those who weren't predestined. They were predestined for something else, but what?nope ... we have choice
The Bible nowhere teaches that God has preordained or predestined anyone to be lost.
We are mostly in agreement on that point. Although, I would only apply predestination for salvation to this life. In the end, everyone will be saved. (in the afterlife) This scripture refers to the order.For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved…1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV
“All” has to mean “all.” If God wants all humankind to be saved, that has to mean that He does not want anyone to be lost. Therefore He has not chosen or predestined anyone to be lost.
Although, I would only apply predestination for salvation to this life. In the end, everyone will be saved. (in the afterlife) This scripture refers to the order.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
That's a great way to say it.Yes, some may be predestined but all are destined.
I love this scripture, but the list has always been a bit hazy to me.Thomas Talbott in The Inescapable Love of God: gives a good analysis of this passage and what it says about predestination/destiny.
"It is as if Paul has in mind the image of a procession, and he quickly lists three segments of the procession: At the head of the procession is Christ, the first fruits; behind him are those who belong to Christ at his coming; and behind them are the remainder— that is, those at the end of the procession— who are there when Christ “hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power” …
even if we understand “then the end” to mean something like “then comes the end of the ages or the end of redemptive history,” Paul makes one point clear: the end will not come until Christ’s victory and triumph are complete; that is, until “he has put all his enemies under his feet” (vs. 25), until he has destroyed the last enemy, which is death (vs. 26), and until “all things are subjected to him” (vs. 28)
I love this scripture, but the list has always been a bit hazy to me.
The main point is that ALL will be made alive, but each in turn. (meaning not all at once) The order of events seems a bit unclear though.
The term "the firstfruits" is unclear. Earlier in the chapter it refers to Christ, but as an individual within the larger group. That is, the leader of the procession that follows. So, it is unclear to me if "the firstfruits" is still in reference to Christ as leading the way, or in reference to the predestined in this life. Backing up to verse 22, does "made alive" refer to our resurrection from Hades? Are we not already "made alive" in this life (John 5:24) and bound for heaven? (skip Hades)
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
This is a good discussion, thanks.I find it hazy too. The idea that there is a hierarchy of rewards in heaven has always sounded odd to me.
I don't know enough to be able to give a meaningful answer to any of your questions. But I personally don't care too much how universal salvation happens, only that it does, and I have no doubt that scripture says it does.
Yes, this is significant.I think like you that we are already "made alive" in this life by the Holy Spirit and are heaven bound. I believe that those who do not receive the Holy Spirit in this life (and I don't believe we know exactly what that means or how we can assess it), they will eventually freely receive it in the next life - the life after death.
I'm not sure if the haziness about the order of events was caused by poor, or biased translation work, or whether the original texts were rather hazy as well. ??? (difficult to translate)
But ultimately, since ALL will be made alive (each in turn), that is enough. We'll get further direction upon arrival.
A seal of ownership. A personal relationship with God.
Right, I agree.So, to sum up, I'm hazy on the details of how we get there, but I believe we all will.
Can you share more about what happened? That's a powerful declaration.Yes, I had a very real sense of this sealing at my baptism.
And this is the struggle we have in explaining to our unconvinced spiritual siblings. They, understandably, want details about how this happens, how it all works. Unfortunately, those details are not clear.
That, and the other popular conclusions demean what we know to be true about God. He is NOT the cosmic tyrant we are being presented with
Can you share more about what happened? That's a powerful declaration.
That is such an incredibly dangerous position to put oneself in. (spiritual extortion) If following God is not a willful act, how can it be salvation? Yikes!No, He's not, He is as He is in Jesus, but some people will be disobedient without a tyrant in charge and so need a God like that in order to have some kind of order in their life. And there's early and social conditioning too.
That is such an incredibly dangerous position to put oneself in. (spiritual extortion) If following God is not a willful act, how can it be salvation? Yikes!
Saint Steven said: ↑
That, and the other popular conclusions demean what we know to be true about God. He is NOT the cosmic tyrant we are being presented with
When God casts people into the Lake of fire, which the Bible definitely says that He will definitely do, He is not being a monster. He is being Loving, be cause God is Love. The people who He is casting into the lake of fire are the real monsters. Why would you think that God would want to allow evil monsters into Heaven?For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.
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