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Right. It's not a discussion, only a smoke screen. Where is the person behind the curtain?I'm referring to is the jumbled wall of text that gets posted a lot that's supposed to define what gehenna was and or meant in Jesus' time.
I remember in some of the Star Trek shows/movies, they referred to a 24 hour period as a "rotation".Yes - we still have the times of sunrise and sunset in the newspaper - but we know that is not literal,
Right. That's why it is called faith."If you believe, you are saved." That's as definitive as it gets.
Right. It's not a discussion, only a smoke screen. Where is the person behind the curtain?
IGNORE = peace.
I was thinking something more like the Wizard of Oz. - lolThe information exists. The problem is the person presented it in a way that's quite difficult to deciper. So it is a matter of looking past the smoke and theatrics, and finding what's behind the curtain to ascertain the whole story, and or the rest of the story à la Paul Harvey.
I don't have any reason yet to conclude Jesus didn't say gehenna. So the plan is to find out what exactly gehenna meant, how it ties in with OT scripture, what meanings and or implications it carried, why Jesus used it etc. I know some or all of those things to a degree already. So it's just a matter of putting it together in a clear concise comprehensive presentation.
However at this time I think it was mainly a reference to 70 AD.
Should I take your statements to indicate a belief in post-mortem progression and eventual salvation of some people? If so, then what percentage, roughly, do you think would be lost forever: 0%, 1%, 10%, 50%, 90%, or more?I'd tend to regard Matthew as an outlier, but think that full UR is going too far (since none of the approaches seems to agree with it). I'm perfectly happy with taking the spirit over the letter, and saying that Jesus' view of God as Father, not to mention his statements that God forgives his enemies, makes Matthew's view of things unlikely.
It sounds like you disagree with full UR but may not have a problem with some degree of post-mortem progression for some people.I have never claimed nor implied that eternal punishment was the only view. I clearly state that in my posts. My point has always been that there was, in fact, a significant belief in Israel before and during the time of Jesus of a place of eternal fiery punishment
That response also does not say anything. It's a bunch of politically correct statements that anyone could write. It would waste less paper to just say, "OGK."
If so, then what percentage, roughly, do you think would be lost forever: 0%, 1%, 10%, 50%, 90%, or more?
Of course, only God knows this. But I assume everyone has an approximate number in their head.
Exactly.It is not the job of translators to behave in this irresponsible way. Translators translate. They shouldn't say “Well, we know what the word "Gehenna" means. It means "Valley of Hinnom" with the Greek word "ge" meaning "valley", and "Henna" is "Hinnom . But who cares? We think it means "hell" so we'll put that in and disingenuously call it a translation."
I was thinking about these points in a general way this week.1.No one will be lost that can be saved- God is sovereign and the divine will, will obtain.
2. The limits to salvation, whatever they may be, are known only to God- It is not for us to decide who or how many are saved, and certainly not for us to declare some are damned as if the limits of God's mercy are known to us.
3. God is a holy God who is not to be trifled with- We shouldn't be presumptuous as if salvation is a trite thing.
4. No one will be saved except by grace alone- self explanatory
5. And no judge could possibly be more gracious than our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Therein lies hope that the just judge is merciful.
Exactly.
And we run into this all the time on the forum too.
We present a verse that clear helps to explain and support UR. The opposition says, "It can't possibly mean that." (the scripture we quoted doesn't match their theology) Because...
- "It's out of context."
- "You are cherry-picking."
- "There are verses over here that disagree."
- "UR is a heresy."
- "What do you do with the "hell" verses?"
- On and on it goes. (ad nauseam)
We need to balance what God is capable of with what he is willing to do
He wouldn't require us to love our enemies if he was planning to incinerate his. IMHO
Yes, these are the symptoms of the very strong attachment to ECT that, thank goodness, I've never experienced. I see it as an indoctrination but one that is particularly insidious because, if you're a believer in ECT, as soon as you start to question it, you'll automatically start to feel fear and anxiety about being punished with just that. It's an imprisoning chain that's very hard to break.
In my personal experience, my sense of spiritual security was attended without a fear of either death or hell. I actually was looking forward to the afterlife.Yes, these are the symptoms of the very strong attachment to ECT that, thank goodness, I've never experienced. I see it as an indoctrination but one that is particularly insidious because, if you're a believer in it, as soon as you start to question the idea of ECT, you'll immediately start to feel fear and anxiety about being punished with just that. It's an imprisoning chain that's very hard to break.
That's true, but not what I was thinking.I think I know what you mean. God has the power to not sustain creation, but is unwilling to do so, perhaps? Is that kind is what you mean?
No BIG winners without BIG losers.I also wonder if some folks just want other folks to suffer forever.
There is actually a new Mainline translation that does something similar:It's as silly as publishing a new "translation" and instead of translating the Greek word for "Jesus" as "Jesus", it's instead translated as "God the Son".
I was thinking something more like the Wizard of Oz. - lol
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