Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

Saint Steven · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
Great image. I liked the detail that it wasn't a competitive race with the consequent losers that that would entail. Artistic perception!

I seem to have a fertile imagination.
Which unfortunately indicates a head full of fertilizer. - lol
But it does explain why I feel like crap when I get a bad headache. (ouch)

Saint Steven · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
How about "redintegrate"

Could make for an intriguing topic title.
Topic: Understanding Your Redintegration in Christ
Should get a lot of curiosity clicks. (click bait topic - lol)

Saint Steven · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
Great image. I liked the detail that it wasn't a competitive race with the consequent losers that that would entail. Artistic perception!

Exactly.
Reminds me of this scripture. (God who justifies the ungodly)

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Hmm · Dec 22, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Redintegration

OTOH it does sound a bit like the sort of thing that's being carried out on the Uyghur population in the internment camps in Xinjiang so perhaps there's a better word!

Saint Steven · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
OTOH it does sound a bit like the sort of thing that's being carried out on the Uyghur population in the internment camps in Xinjiang so perhaps there's a better word!

I checked for synonyms. Some possibilities there.

Recovery, remedy, reunion, reconstruction... renovation?

Reintegration synonyms - 114 Words and Phrases for Reintegration

Andrewn · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
How about "redintegrate"

Verb, transitive
to make whole or complete again; restore to a perfect state; renew

Word origin
C15: from Latin redintegrāre to renew, from red- re- + integer complete

This brings to mind the Recapitulation theory of atonement. Formulated by Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202 AD), it is one of the earliest theories and ILE Ramelli considers this theory a clear precursor to Origen's apocatastasis. This makes UR a very early belief in Christianity. Irenaeus himself being a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Evangelist.

Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia

Andrewn · Dec 22, 2021

Saint Steven said:
While reading your post I was overtaken by a mental image of a marathon race finish line. Jesus was carrying my unconscious body in his arms across the finish line. He looked as though he had just come down from the cross, yet he was carrying me.

I love this image. I think it is more prophetic than merely fertile imagination.

Saint Steven · Dec 22, 2021

Andrewn said:
I love this image. I think it is more prophetic than merely fertile imagination.

Thanks. (I agree)
Moses wrote...

Numbers 12:3 NRSV
Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth.

Andrewn · Dec 22, 2021

Der Alte said:
What does Hebrews say they would be punished for? A sorer punishment than death without mercy. Both sources affirm that those who trampled on the blood of Jesus would receive that sorer punishment than death without mercy. Not just loss of some benefits as Stanley said.

Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who disregarded the law of Moses died without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, who has regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the one who has said, Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge his people. 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I quoted the whole passage from the CSB © 2017. This is an important passage that has been subjected to different interpretations. The bottomline in the passage is that there will be severe punishment. It does not describe the punishment as "endless" or "everlasting" and the example it gives of the of those who disregarded the law of Moses does not include torment forever in Hell.

Those to be punished are described as adversaries who have trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace. These are absolutely terrible offenses and quite likely most people do not qualify for the punishment under these kind of conditions.

atpollard · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians?

It makes the Bible a work of fiction that paints Jesus as a liar and a deceiver.

(The OP requested “gut reactions”.)

Servus · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
Fair enough, we don't know for sure. But we do know whether or not we would still worship God if ECT was a reality. I know I wouldn't. But fortunately I find the scriptual evidence for universal reconciliation overwhelming so I can keep my faith.

I was doing one of those "hmm could be" when the answer is most likely yes. Also it was a play on your username.

Hmm · Dec 22, 2021

atpollard said:
It makes the Bible a work of fiction that paints Jesus as a liar and a deceiver.

(The OP requested “gut reactions”.)

Yes, and thanks for your honest response.

Hmm · Dec 22, 2021

MMXX said:
I was doing one of those "hmm could be" when the answer is most likely yes. Also it was a play on your username.

Ah, I forgot how frighteningly subtle you can be at times! I still think what you said was true though and that we don't really know anything for sure. Everything is problematic to some extent.

Servus · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
Ah, I forgot how frighteningly subtle you can be at times! I still think what you said was true though and that we don't really know anything for sure. Everything is problematic to some extent.

I'll agree with that. Hope and trust, yes. Know, eh... That's why aside from this, I usually avoid eschatological discussions.

Der Alte · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
Does the idea of God punishing anyone make sense anyway? Doesn't He forgive us without punishing us first because that was remitted for us on the cross?
Don't we all get a "free pass" on punishment because we're justified by Christ's blood? And as we're all sinful, why won't those who turn to Jesus in the next age receive the same remittance as those who kneel and confess in this age?
Lots of question marks there for some reason but you can treat them as rhetorical if you like!

Was God forgiving in Gen 7 when He destroyed everything on the earth; men, women, old, young, children, infants except for Noah, his family and the animals he had on the Ark?
Was God forgiving when He destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains; men, women, old, young, children, infants except for Lot and his family?
Was God forgiving when He commanded Israel to go into all the Canaanite cities and destroy every living thing; men, women, old, young, children, infants?

Der Alte · Dec 22, 2021

Andrewn said:
* * *
I quoted the whole passage from the CSB © 2017. This is an important passage that has been subjected to different interpretations. The bottomline in the passage is that there will be severe punishment. It does not describe the punishment as "endless" or "everlasting" and the example it gives of the of those who disregarded the law of Moses does not include torment forever in Hell. * * *

Good for you I also quoted the whole passage when I posted earlier in this thread.
While it does not say "eternal punishment" what would you consider punishment worse than death without mercy?

Hmm · Dec 22, 2021

Der Alte said:
Was God forgiving in Gen 7 when He destroyed everything on the earth; men, women, old, young, children, infants except for Noah, his family and the animals he had on the Ark?
Was God forgiving when He destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains; men, women, old, young, children, infants except for Lot and his family?
Was God forgiving when He commanded Israel to go into all the Canaanite cities and destroy every living thing; men, women, old, young, children, infants?

I would need to look the scholarship around about these passages. I don't automatically take them literalistically as you do.

Servus · Dec 22, 2021

Der Alte said:
what would you consider punishment worse than death without mercy?

Something you made up, because it's not in the Bible.

Edit: I was incorrect about that.

Der Alte · Dec 22, 2021

Andrewn said:
This brings to mind the Recapitulation theory of atonement. Formulated by Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202 AD), it is one of the earliest theories and ILE Ramelli considers this theory a clear precursor to Origen's apocatastasis. This makes UR a very early belief in Christianity. Irenaeus himself being a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Evangelist.
Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia

I'm not sure I would rely on Wiki for trustworthy evidence.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV.Chap. XXVIII
1. Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God [displayed] when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly: for the fire is eternal, and the wrath of God which shall be revealed from heaven from the face of our Lord (as David also says, “But the face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth” [Psa_34:16]), entails a heavier punishment on those who incur it, — the ciders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, [arguing] from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavour to bring in another Father, setting over against [these punishments] what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him, taking compassion upon them; while they keep silence with regard to His judgment; and all those things which shall come upon such as have heard His words, but done them not, and that it were better for them if they had not been born, (Mat_26:24) and that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the judgment than for that city which did not receive the word of His disciples.(Mat_10:15)
2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language:92 thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,” (Mat_25:41) these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,” (Mat_25:34) these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.
2. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, “He that believeth in Me is not condemned,” (Joh_3:18, Joh_3:21) that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, “He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God;” that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. “For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God.”

Der Alte · Dec 22, 2021

Hmm said:
I would need to look the scholarship around about these passages. I don't automatically take them literalistically as you do.

Unbelievable. You have never read about the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and Israel's army destroying every living thing in the Canaan cities?

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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