Or in Helsinki for that matterYou might not make it into Valhalla to meet Thor with that attitude. Instead you might wind up in Hell with Loki.
There is a hell. Who will go there is the question
My understanding is that UR does not reject the concept of hell. It is called lake of fire / Gehenna in the Bible. UR only rejects the concept of everlasting / endless punishment as in ECT. Several recent posts seem to indicate a a complete rejection of post-mortem corrective punishment. But this is not how this extremely long thread started."Hell" - uncreated and mostly unmentioned. When mentioned, badly translated from words not applicable to the fiction of Dante, Milton and Baxter. Yes, most of the support for "hell" is fiction, whether epic poetry, prose descriptions, movies, songs or whatever. Team "Hell" will try to keep the discussion on theo-illogical grounds, but truly, if you strip away all the popular culture tropes of "hell," there is little left. An honestly-translated Bible does away with the rest.
My understanding is that UR does not reject the concept of hell. It is called lake of fire / Gehenna in the Bible. UR only rejects the concept of everlasting / endless punishment as in ECT. Several recent posts seem to indicate a a complete rejection of post-mortem corrective punishment. But this is not how this extremely long thread started.
And so boring they could render you commatose.Oh, my. That is so funny. - lol
Good one.
Apostrophic would be catastrophic, if not completely off-topic.
In the heat of a discussion, people (generally speaking) seem to take positions that they did not initially intend. The question I have is whether the seeming denial of post-mortem punishment is a lack in precision in wording or an actual belief in no post-mortem correction?For a 169 page thread it hasn't seemed to drift too far off topic.
My understanding is that UR does not reject the concept of hell. It is called lake of fire / Gehenna in the Bible. UR only rejects the concept of everlasting / endless punishment as in ECT. Several recent posts seem to indicate a a complete rejection of post-mortem corrective punishment. But this is not how this extremely long thread started.
My understanding is that UR does not reject the concept of hell. It is called lake of fire / Gehenna in the Bible. UR only rejects the concept of everlasting / endless punishment as in ECT. Several recent posts seem to indicate a a complete rejection of post-mortem corrective punishment. But this is not how this extremely long thread started.
These are a lot of words that do not answer my question. I thought my question was simple enough. Is there post-mortem corrective punishment?There are I think some different views within UR. The way I see it, there's Hades, which spiritually is the prison of/ enslavement to sin, if you like - false beliefs, bad habits and double-mindedness that keeps us from true union with Christ. Then there's Gehenna, where all that stuff gets worked out, the strongholds of satan, as it were, are broken down by the power of the Lamb.
So there's no objective place of hell, but a subjective state of experience that may occur as Hades and/or Gehenna, as the sinner wrestles with spiritual enemies in overcoming the flesh. But as long as hope remains alive, hell never quite manifests. Hell is for the Rich Man who has no clue as to what he's done wrong, until such time as it dawns on him - look to Christ and be saved!
No, but applying them to texts is.So God's sworn oaths are highly subjective now? Good luck with that.
It's based on nothing more than your own assumption being forced upon the text.Nope, it's based on explicit Biblical and natural revelation. God is absolute, why do things by halves?
Uh huh. A strawman coupled with an ad hominem. I guess whatever we want the text to mean that's what it will mean, analysis is beyond the average person right?Right, so now Christianity is only for the learned, educated and articulate. Smells like the leaven of the Pharisee to me.
That calls for a tu quoque.
And what possible reason could He have, consistent with His love, faith, hope, truth, wisdom, holiness, perfection, justice, mercy, grace etc?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. (Jn 12:24)
Yes, that is the view of most Christians, and it was my view at one time, that is, going to heaven or hell after death. As I have stated here before, I was exposed first to ECT, later to annihilationism and lastly to UR. In 2014 I decided to survey the Bible to see which theory fit the data best. My first clue was in Genesis 1:1 where "hell" was not mentioned as being created. I checked the other verses where the Creation was mentioned, and "hell" was always left out. I concluded that the dualistic concept of heaven versus hell, with the souls of men as a contested prize...was false. I realized that it's a hierarchy: God, Cosmos, Earth, Man, etc. I read the Bible and make my own conclusions, using my God-given common sense. I actively try not to read the text through a theological filter.
Riddle me this please. If I want accurate information about the beliefs, practices and history of, let us say the LDS, whom should I consult Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptist etc. or the LDS themselves? I first began discussions with LDS missionaries in the early 80s when an acquaintance began associating with them. When I mentioned this to the acquaintance he asked "What's wrong with them?" I really didn't know so I began collecting their writings. I began reading the Book of Mormon it wasn't long before I noticed contradictions both with the Bible and within the BOM itself.Please allow me say it in simpler language: Your consistent choice of Jewish and ONLY Jewish sources looks like bias from where I stand. You seem to assume they are infallible, but I see your sources as the product of men, like anything else man-made, and therefore suspect.
....."'Hell' is too theologically and emotionally loaded a word to be of any use to anyone."This UR believer thinks that "hell" is too theologically and emotionally loaded a word to be of any use to anyone. The Lake of Fire, being a manifestation of Godfire, is the agent of "post-mortem corrective punishment." It is for burning away dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble - anything keeping us back from entering the Kingdom. What's not to like?
Riddle me this please. If I want accurate information about the beliefs, practices and history of, let us say the LDS, whom should I consult Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptist etc. or the LDS themselves? I first began discussions with LDS missionaries in the early 80s when an acquaintance began associating with them. When I mentioned this to the acquaintance he asked "What's wrong with them?" I really didn't know so I began collecting their writings. I began reading the Book of Mormon it wasn't long before I noticed contradictions both with the Bible and within the BOM itself.
.....Now if you can point me to some credible, verifiable historical evidence about the faith and practices of the Jews from the time of Jesus forward by all means do so. If not why not? Speak now or forever hold your peace.
What's not to like, indeed. Please take note none of this can be attributed to Augustine, Justinian, Dante or any Christian scholars..
…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews, below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in the following post.
[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[Note, “soon” in this passage would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. And at least 14 centuries before Dante'. DA]
”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
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