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Biased, misinformed rubbish. See my post immediately above.
NO MMXX. Every "human being" is included in Adam because ALL have sinned!
The answer is all people sin because they are born sinners. Why are all people born sinners? Because Adam sinned. Notice the train of thought here. Adam sinned and at this point sin is enters the world and through sin death also enters the world bringing death to all people because all people sin.
Why is it that you sin? You sin because Adam sinned. You sin because his act made you a sinner. You sin because you are a sinner.
There are TWO kinds of people on the earth.
#1. Lost
#2. The Saved.
Only those who are BORN AGAIN are included in Christ.
The gift that Christ brings in an abundant way covers over this horrible result. Christ comes and brings with Him righteousness. One man sinned, but Jesus covers over the sins of many. Adam brought sin and death, Jesus brings righteousness and life. Adam brought condemnation upon all men, Jesus brings justification.
What glorious news! Sinners can be made righteous. Those bound for Hell can be brought to Eternity with Jesus.
There is here a fountain of grace for you. It is grace enough, an abundance, to cover your sin and shame. Adam made everyone a sinner and Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection are enough to cleanse the worst of sinners. Christ is the cure for the horror of Adam’s sin that has run rampant in your life.
Please show me from scripture where Jesus specifically condemned the "paganized" Jewish belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which existed in Israel before and during the time of Jesus.
¢¢…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews,
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in the following post.
[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).…..Jesus opposed the Jewish leaders many times, He undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17). Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB
That's odd, I thought the exact same thing when I read your post immediately above.
You don't seem to like rubbish very much. Is that because you're a concerned environmentalist? Knowing you comrade Alte and all your liberal ways, I very much think so.
Rubbish. Everting he reposts is incontrovertible you ninny.
"In Christ" has a special meaning in most of the epistles, referring to those baptised into the faith. This is the one that is likely being used here since Paul begins this teaching with a rhetorical "unless you beleived in vain." It would have to be shown that the referrents are the same class because as phrased the implication is that these are two distinct groups being contrasted based upon their "head."
That's odd, I thought the exact same thing when I read your post immediately above.
You don't seem to like rubbish very much. Is that because you're a concerned environmentalist? Knowing you comrade Alte and all your liberal ways, I very much think so.
I have seen better responses in a preschool playground "Neener, neener, neener. You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" I notice that not one single UR-ite has ever attempted to refute my post. Christian Universalism. What's not to like?Well, I guess reposting is a bit like recycling so it's all beginning to make some kind of sense. Unless I'm going completely mad because I've spent too long engaging with Team Hell, always a possibility.
I have seen better responses in a preschool playground "Neener, neener, neener. You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" I notice that not one single UR-ite has ever attempted to refute my post. Christian Universalism. What's not to like?
I have seen better responses in a preschool playground "Neener, neener, neener. You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!"
I notice that not one single UR-ite has ever attempted to refute my post. Christian Universalism. What's not to like?
So what Adam did is unlimited. But what Jesus did to undo what Adam did is limited.
It is not brain surgery!
No...it's mind surgery.
But it's very hard to refute you comrade because you surround whatever it is you want to say with with masses of copied and pasted text. If you simply said what you believed, you would get more responses. I suspect though that that's the last thing you want.
So the red part and the blue part have two completely different meanings? "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."
You have proved that that is not the case either.
It is all about READING the Bible and believing what it says. It is actually just that simple!
"You have proved that that is not the case either." Explain, please.
As for reading the Bible, I maintain that to believe what it really says, you must read it without a theological filter. I thank God for my atheist years, for when I did become a Christian, I was able to read the Bible without presuppositions.
"You have proved that that is not the case either." Explain, please.
As for reading the Bible, I maintain that to believe what it really says, you must read it without a theological filter. I thank God for my atheist years, for when I did become a Christian, I was able to read the Bible without presuppositions.
You can not prove that by me.
Lots of admitted atheists here.
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