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Where does it say the rich man was not screaming?
What it doesn't say is irrelevant. What it does say is that he was talking, and it was depicted as him talking in an ordinary fashion.
Come on man! You expect lucid, rational comments from a person on the point of death? Are you familiar with the term "hyperbole?" Which OBTW is from the Greek literally "to throw or place above."
Consider this was Simon a literal stone when Jesus called him "Petros?" i.e. stone. In the cotton patch gospel, yes it is an actual thing, Clarence Jordan called Peter "Rock Johnson."
Was Herod an actual fox when Jesus called him that? Were James and John actual sons of thunder when Jesus called them that? When a word, any word, is used figuratively that does not affect the inherent meaning. Now that I have provided you a link you might consider doing a little research and see how many times native Hebrew speaking scholars translated "olam" and "ad" as eternal, everlasting etc.
I quoted it exactly as printed. But I guess that is as good excuse as any. I think I highlighted certain passages.
Luke 16:24
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Maybe you should try getting up a little earlier.
And you psychoanalyzed me when and know how I interpreted the passage? My method is this "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense." That is what I do. Unlike the Hell no crowd I don't twist the scriptures trying to make them say what I want them to.φωνήσας (phōnēsas) means to call out. Like "hey you!". This is where you go back to the mode of KJV only and every word written is literal, so you see "cried" and decide that must mean literally crying as in screaming.
Now in your post #2214 you used reasoning when it came to deciphering what's literal and what's figurative. So when it comes to reasoning, if someone is engulfed in literal flames, they don't hold a conversation in a normal fashion like the rich man is depicted doing. Also if someone was literally in flames, they wouldn't ask for a drop of water to cool their tongue. Can you imagine someone who's literally on fire walking up to you and saying "can I have a drop of water to cool my tongue?". Luke 16:19-31 is obviously full of hyperbolic, symbolic, figurative language.
And you psychoanalyzed me when and know how I interpreted the passage? My method is this "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense." That is what I do. Unlike the Hell no crowd I don't twist the scriptures trying to make them say what I want them to. The word translated cried in the Lk 16:24 is not the usual word for "said" which is "epos" and it occurs 983 times in the NT. "Phonesas" OTOH only occurs 42 times so it is NOT normal speech.
About the drop of water. Would a person who is being tormented in flames be thinking and speaking rationally? And OBTW I studied Greek and Hebrew at the graduate level more than 4 decades ago, don't assume that I don't know or have not have not considered what I say. I have BDAG, and BDB right here on my laptop. Have lexicons will travel.
Why don't you stick to what you actually know instead of trying to psychoanalyze me.
Yes Steve.
ALL men are lost and separated from God Steve. In fact ALL men were dead to God.
Isaiah 59:2......
"But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear."
Ephesians 2:1....
"And you hath he quickened, (Saved)who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
DEATH is the event that keeps a lost man lost!
While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances...
Your idea about those who do not believe really makes no sense at all. ? YOU say, they will repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face.
DEATH is the event that keeps a lost man lost!
DEATH is the event that keeps a lost man lost!
DEATH is the event that keeps a lost man lost!
What needs to be taken into consideration regarding what Jesus said, is that it was all said before the Cross. After the resurrection, Jesus bridged the separation. That's why there's so many illustrations of the Cross acting as a bridge across a gulf / chasm. Jesus bridged the separation.
Where is your evidence for that? Are we reading the same Bible?While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances...
Where is your evidence for that? Are we reading the same Bible?
This is the sort of rubbish that is used to blame the victim of ECT. Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus at all. And no opportunity to even reject him. The same God that requires us to love our enemies will also love his own.Your idea about those who do not believe really makes no sense at all. ? YOU say, they will repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face.
That's true. But what do you do with these ALLs?Example.......Romans 3:23.....
" For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".
Isiah 53:6.......
"We ALL, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
This is the sort of rubbish that is used to blame the victim of ECT. Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus at all. And no opportunity to even reject him. The same God that requires us to love our enemies will also love his own.
That's true. But what do you do with these ALLs?
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Good point. God wouldn't give us moral standards to uphold that higher than His own. Because He has commanded us to love our enemies and to forgive seventy times seven times, i.e. endlessly, we can be absolutely sure that that He will do the same. Torturing someone forever is not the best definition of love I've ever heard!
And if you have trouble understanding this one, our good friend @public hermit has written an excellent explanation. See below. Thanks.
This post gets a 10If mental gymnastics was an Olympic sport we'd have quite a few potential gold medalists here
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's amazing that anyone would think that God would hold us to a higher level of godliness than he would hold himself to. Madness. Loving our enemies doesn't mean incinerating them. Yet this make complete sense to the Infernalist.
"Well, those God-haters had it coming." Well, didn't our enemies "have it coming"? Seems so, yet we are directed to love them. (minus the incineration - lol)
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