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PantsMcFist

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It is about freedom.
Would you rather force people to support the "greater good" as you see it. Or should "individuals" be free to support the "greater good" as they see it for themselves?

Looking at how the richest nation in world is going, compare to 2/3 of the rest of the world, I have no faith in the 'haves' realizing that the belong to that group, and reaching out. Especially with the guiding paradigm for that nation being self-interest, and self-aggrandizement. To that end, yes, I would rather see imposed socialism, than piecemeal charity.

If people started waking up to the realities of the cost/benefits that their lifestyle has, I would be more than willing to support and more open or free system. I just don't see that happening. Don't get me wrong, I really do wish it would, and I do my best to educate people who are open to the knowledge of the effects of their choices on the rest of the world.
 
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DieHappy

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His 95% of us will get a tax cut thing is based not on actually collecting less taxes but on government rebates and credits. $4000 for sending a kid to college, $7000 for buying an alt fuel car, etc.

The government will be paying people depending on how they live their lives.
 
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Doesn't the federal government already do this? Public schools receive money based on grades and child enrollment. Taxpayers already receive rebates for alternative energy purchases.
 
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Smidlee

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Matthew 19:24 has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. This is why picking verses out of context is a bad idea.

First this rich man seems to have morals. He claim he kept the commandments (the ones dealing with his fellowman) from his youth which Jesus did not rebuke him. So it seems he got his riches without cheating his fellowman.
This rich man came and humble himself at the feet of the right person. He even asked the right question.

There many believers in the OT who were blessed with riches, Abraham, Job and Solomon as a few examples. God promised Israel as a nation God would bless the nation financially if they obey Him.
So in the disciples' eyes if anyone was going to go to heaven it would be this rich man whom they saw was bless by God.
Jesus surprised them with the statement in Matthew 19:24 which shock the disciples in asking " Who then can be saved?" (if this man isn't saved then who can be. I heard some people make this statement before "If so&so didn't go to heaven no one would go)

This statement reveals the matter "With men this is impossible (obviously Jesus is not referring to a camel going through some gate which would be possible with man) but with God all things are possible."
In another words even if a moral man with has been bless by God with the world riches can not enter into heaven on his own merits. Neither can anyone else.

The reason why Jesus ask him to give up his riches was to reveal he was already serving a god; his wealth. There is nothing in scripture wrong with someone being wealthy. Also it's the love of money and not money itself. It's the great desire to be rich that is the trap. You can be poor as dirt and still love and worship the dollar while someone else load with money can be right with God. Thus some of those who are for these socialist programs could be guilty of lusting after someone's wealth.

One reason why a lot of politicians claimed they are for these social policies is because they are trying to buy votes.
 
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joebudda

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So then you do desire to force others to submit the "greater good" as you see it. Are you willing to punish or use violence on others who disagree with you and choose not to support your opinion regarding what you believe the "greater good" is?

Are you willing to enslave everyone for your own idealist dream? Is that what you desire?
 
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FightTheLeft

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This conversation has turned from the "it's in the Bible" to "it ain't bad so why be against socialism." Also pre Bush tax cuts are Clintons largest tax hike ever, in which democrats jumped up in celebration when it passed, they sure love those taxes. Also, if the Bible wants socialism, then that would be a violation of Separation of Church and State if we were to institute socialism. Apparently it only applies when people are telling you guys to stop slaughtering human beings.
 
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PantsMcFist

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Violence is the last thing which I desire, but people driven to violence out of selfish entitlement would probably be met with violence.

The thing about the "greater good" is that it's not about how "I" see it. I think everyone could agree that raising the standard of education and healthcare around the world is a greater good. This is my primary motivation. My secondary motivation is to reduce Western consumption, whether by law or social progress. It's simply unrealistic to believe that the means exist to elevate everyone in the world to our level of material wealth.

I also realize that there will always be some degree of disparity in the world, and have made my peace with that. What I am not willing to abide is the degree to which that disparity currently exists.

Who is everyone in your statement? If by enslave you mean tax, or wealth redistribution, then yes. If by everyone you mean the Western world, then yes.

I think that those who disagree (regarding punishment again), do so out of some misplaced belief that they deserve or have some inherent right to certain material comforts which 99% of the rest of humanity cannot afford, or is not otherwise available to, through no fault of their own.
 
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joebudda

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But the point is we will not ever all agree on the means to these "greater goods". So instead of forcing the support of individuals who disagree (enslaving them), allow them the freedom to support what they believe is the "greatest good" from their own perspective as along as they are not forcing someone else to submit to their will.
I don't this anyone has any "right" to anything other then freedom to live their lives the way they decide for themselves. Once someone is being forced to submit to someone else's will they are then being enslaved and therefore their "right to liberty" has been taken away from them.
 
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PantsMcFist

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Should we have the freedom to live our lives the way we want, because we are unable to see or anticipate the causes and consequences which our choices bare out in other parts of the world? There are many people in the developing world who do not have the most basic of rights or freedoms, because we choose to live lives of ignorant consumption.

Most people in the world do not have the option and ability to choose what their lives will entail, and much of that limitation is due to Western lifestyles of conspicuous consumption.
 
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joebudda

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We educate the people around us and allow them to decide what to do for themselves.

Or else we are forcing someone to submit to someone elses opinion. Like lets say that I felt it was in dire need to protect earthworms (or any cause), just because I can get a people to agree with me should I then be allowed to force everyone to fund the protection of earthworms? Should I have the "right" to reach into everyone's bank accounts or paychecks to fund the protection of earthworms even if some people may think that using that money to help the hungry child in their own community is more important to them? Should I have the right to decide for them that earthworms are more important then the hungry child?

The point is everyone has their own ideas on what is important and how to make it better. If they don't have the freedom to make the world a better place the way they decide for themselves then they are slaves to someone else's opinion.
 
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PantsMcFist

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Your analogy is faulty, and very nearly inverse. I am talking about feeding starving people, providing basic accessible health care to all, and education to everyone regardless of economic status. At the expense of a minority of human's ability to choose whether they want a new car or a new boat, or the ability to own closets full of clothes and dozens of shoes. This is not some crazy pet project like protecting earthworms while someone's fundamental rights are in jeopardy. To suggest otherwise would be the height of willful ignorance of the issues at hand.

I have no problem forcing someone to submit to an opinion that is not their own. If someone refuses to see reason, or admit a need to change an injustuce in favor of their own point of view, too bad. This self-regard above all is loathesome to me. All opinions are not equal.
 
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joebudda

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My analogy could be for anything. And that is really the point, we all have different ideas about what is most important.

And what if I believe you are unable to see "reason" regarding personal liberty or the "injustice" of forcing others to submit to your opinion? Because you believe you can force your will onto others does that then mean I also have the right to use force to prevent you from using force on others? I believe I have the "right" to protect myself from your use of force.

We clearly disagree. And you said "all opinions are not equal", Do you then believe you have more right to enslave others? Or do I have more right in protecting others from your enslavement?
 
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FTPolice

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That sort of begs the question. Why is your philosophy one of liberation but his is one of enslavement? I could just as easily argue that anarcho capitalism is enslavement and just replaces a government that the people have at least SOME influence over and must answer to the people with a corporation that cares for nothing but their own profits and replaces a police force with a private security force with no responsibility or oversight.
 
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joebudda

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I would love to see you try to argue libertarianism and free markets are pro-enslavement or anti-freedom in some way. That should be interesting, do you have any common examples to support your case?
 
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PantsMcFist

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Your analogy could be for anything, but it is clear that you are pitting a worthless cause against a worthy one - with the interpretation up to the reader.

Writing this disagreement off as simply - a difference in opinion seems to me to be staggering abrogation of critical thought. There is no circumstance which I can think of in which the needs (as in, starvation) of many ought to be out weighed by the 'right to liberty' of a few. In such a case, the few not in need may be enslaved in order to fulfill the needs of the many. Is that the bullet you wanted me to bite?

Now, let's be perfectly clear - you're arguing that opinions are all of equal relative merit, while the topic at hand is starvation, disease, and apathy to the manifest, objective needs of four billion human beings. You are either trolling me, or are fantastically arrogant.
 
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PantsMcFist

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I would love to see you try to argue libertarianism and free markets are pro-enslavement or anti-freedom in some way. That should be interesting, do you have any common examples to support your case?

I defy you to cite any example of any ideal being enacted. Ideal situations are not what are created by humans, so why argue from the point of view which presumes one?
 
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joebudda

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Your analogy could be for anything, but it is clear that you are pitting a worthless cause against a worthy one - with the interpretation up to the reader.
A worthless cause to one can be the greatest good to another. That is the point. We are not all robots with the exact same goals and desires as everyone else. We are each individuals with each our own perspective and desires.

I would love to get rid of government schools altogether, whereas you might not agree. I have my own reasons which stem from the belief the free market can do a much better job for much cheaper where as you might have some totally different rationale for your position. I don't believe I should be forced to pay for government schools because I think I should have the freedom to invest that money into something I believe to be a "greater good".

Writing this disagreement off as simply - a difference in opinion seems to me to be staggering abrogation of critical thought.
I might think the same about your perspective.
I believe forcing others to submit to someone else's opinion is wrong and immoral. If you can't convince people to volunteer to a worthy cause you believe in then apparently that cause isn't worthy enough from their perspective, which is why I would imagine you leave open resorting to using force against others to make them submit to your opinion.

Resorting to force only exposes you have given up on critical thought and favor support through force.
I believe if you need to resort to force, then that opinion holds no value at all. If you can't persuade others to voluntarily support the causes you support then that is your own problem, and you have no right to force that onto anyone else. And I believe anyone has the right to protect themselves from any act of aggression, even if you believe it is for a worthy cause.
 
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joebudda

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I defy you to cite any example of any ideal being enacted. Ideal situations are not what are created by humans, so why argue from the point of view which presumes one?

I believe an ideal situation would be if we were all free to live our lives anyway we choose as long as we don't infringe on others freedom to live the way they choose.
 
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PantsMcFist

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You're missing the entire point. Here is *the point* - most people are apathetic to, or unwilling to live a lifestyle which would allow *all* people a measure of equality. My opinion is that this is objectively wrong, and that the only people who would deny that are self-serving and in the wrong (again, objectively speaking).

The issue here is not whether or not gov't should have any control, or not control. It is that people who are generally unwilling to help those who cannot help themselves should be made to do so through the state. If those people cannot be persuaded, it is not the fault of my opinion, but there inability to see a need for compassionate action.

I know you are taking a position to condemn the violence I espouse, but remember that it was my response to people acting violently out of selfish motivations. I am not proposing anything which does not already exist or happen through the IRS. In the end I guess that is the true draw of pure libertarianism - freedom to act without any undue concern for the needs of others, and the ability to scapegoat misfortune upon the victims of circumstance.
 
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Thomas49

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Your objections are thoughtful and are worthy of serious consideration and more than a snap response.

Just a quick observation at this time---

In regard to your saying "Jesus never uttered, exlcaimed, or screamed any statement demanding any government in particular, all governments in the future, or governments in general should codify his teachings." I respond that every time that Jesus spoke to the Scribes and Pharisees he was indeed insisting that they obey His teachings. And they were in fact the closest thing to a government that Israel had at the time, namely the Sanhedrin, or Assembly. The fact that they along with the country as a whole were under Roman occupation did not get them off the hook. Jesus did not speak directly to the government of Rome because in His earthly ministry--
Matthew 15:24
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
 
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